Forced retirement (merged) - Page 8

AVGWarhawk · 04-25-07, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

German kaleuns were forced to do more patrols since the Kriegsmarine was losing more than what could be replaced. As for your list, at least 1 of them, Hardegen, was retired due to health problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

Now, the standard fare among the subsim forum apologists is "The average US sub commander did 5 patrols" or some such bunk.

If you'd crack a book and learn a little history (or as you call it "some such bunk"), you'd know that Lockwood was big on giving his skippers leave after 4 or 5 patrols so as to keep them fresh. Many of them were bumped up the chain after just a few patrols. Imagine that, a sub simulation that actually simulates what happened.

Do I agree that "realistic career length" should be an option? Sure.

Who to blame for the SH4 career structure bug?

1) Lockwood: for bumping skippers up the line

2) Grunt: for pointing out the problem and backing it with facts

3 The dev's: for borking the un-borked SH3 career structure beyond recognition

How is this a bug? Please clarify. It seems to me it works as intended. Now if you are given the option to continue on, this would be a feature. Now please clarify how this is construed as a bug.

Seems to me if it is something you do not like is it shelved as a bug. Very odd.....

NEON DEON · 04-25-07, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

Who to blame for the SH4 career structure bug?

1) Lockwood: for bumping skippers up the line

2) Grunt: for pointing out the problem and backing it with facts

3 The dev's: for borking the un-borked SH3 career structure beyond recognition

4. A submarine simulation for SIMULATING history. Imagine that, eh? :rotfl:

I am going to get stuffed on this one but what the heck.

Mook you did say sub sim not skipper sim.

Narwhal 15 war patrols

Nautilus 14 war patrols

Drum 13 war patrols

Just a few of the boats that went almost all the way.

AVGWarhawk · 04-25-07, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

Who to blame for the SH4 career structure bug?

1) Lockwood: for bumping skippers up the line

2) Grunt: for pointing out the problem and backing it with facts

3 The dev's: for borking the un-borked SH3 career structure beyond recognition

4. A submarine simulation for SIMULATING history. Imagine that, eh? :rotfl:

I am going to get stuffed on this one but what the heck.

Mook you did say sub sim not skipper sim.

Narwhal 15 war patrols

Nautilus 14 war patrols

Drum 13 war patrols

Just a few of the boats that went almost all the way.

Boats yes but with the same Skipper? I do not believe so. Could be wrong but I believe I'm not.

mookiemookie · 04-25-07, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

Mook you did say sub sim not skipper sim.

I don't see any difference between the two.

Nightmare · 04-25-07, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

I am going to get stuffed on this one but what the heck.

Mook you did say sub sim not skipper sim.

Narwhal 15 war patrols

Nautilus 14 war patrols

Drum 13 war patrols

Just a few of the boats that went almost all the way.

SH4 is simulating a submarine captain's career not the boat. Using Fleetsubmarine.com as reference we see that:

Narwhal had 4 different skippers during the war

Nautilus also had 4 different skippers

Drum had 5

NEON DEON · 04-25-07, 03:52 PM

Ok I will put it another way:

The boats did not retire after 5 patrols.

NEON DEON · 04-25-07, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

I am going to get stuffed on this one but what the heck.

Mook you did say sub sim not skipper sim.

Narwhal 15 war patrols

Nautilus 14 war patrols

Drum 13 war patrols

Just a few of the boats that went almost all the way.

SH4 is simulating a captains career not the boat. Using Fleetsubmarine.com as reference we see that:

Narwhal had 4 different skippers during the war

Nautilus also had 4 different skippers

Drum had 4 as well

The name of the forums you are typing in is SUBSIM.COM

not

SUBSKIPPER.COM :p

AVGWarhawk · 04-25-07, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

Ok I will put it another way:

The boats did not retire after 5 patrols.

Exactly.

elanaiba · 04-25-07, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

The career structure of SH3 was "open ended", thus allowing for a great degree of variation such as port, boat, crew, equipment, year, etc etc. Thus adding to overall playability as well as replay value.

Now, with SH4 we have a hideous forced career structure that severely limits playability and virtually obliterates replayability.

Now, the standard fare among the subsim forum apologists is "The average US sub commander did 5 patrols" or some such bunk.

Be that as it may, we must therefore assume that should all things be equal, SH4 should behave much like SH3.

Ive been waiting for one of the self-appointed "experts" here to clarify this, but Ive waited long enough so Ill do it myself.

Please review the following information on German uboat commanders, with special note to amount of patrols.

Weight this carefully against the theory that "if it aint broke, dont fix it". Then lets remind the dev's this is an issue that needs to be fixed...immediately.

Karl-Friedrich Merten = 5 patrols

Georg Lassen = 4 patrols

Carl Emmermann = 5 patrols

Ernst Kals = 5 patrols

Helmut Witte = 4 patrols

Günter Hessler = 3 patrols

Ernst Bauer = 5 patrols

Reinhard Hardegen = 5 patrols

Werner Hartmann = 4 patrols

Richard Zapp = 5 patrols

Victor Oehrn = 4 patrols

Erwin Rostin = 2 patrols

Hans Ludwig Witt = 3 patrols

I understand you want not to be retired after 5 patrols. The game was never meant to be that strict. And some people are still playing after more than 5 patrols, on this forum.

But the way you have worded the message, it sounds more like youre complaining that SH3 is letting you continue after 5 patrols :O

DragonRR1 · 04-25-07, 04:05 PM

We complain where the game is historical, we complain where the game is not historical..

I'm sure most here can see arguments for terminating the career in a historical fashion or letting the player continue on in a more arcade fashion. I am quite certain the devs are aware that a number of users would like to see an option to continue the career.

Personally I would like the option to be there but I don't see this issue as a number 1 priority. There are many other problems which I personally consider to be of more importance - AI, Torpedo type issues, the chronometer problem and so on.

VonBlade · 04-25-07, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

4. A submarine simulation for SIMULATING history. Imagine that, eh? :rotfl:

I don't want to get lynched, but it's a game. WWII was 6 years long. US involvement lasted 4 years. So I should have a good 1000 days of sea time to spend mucking about in the water, should I so wish.

My 1.00025 Pence.

Nightmare · 04-25-07, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

The name of the forums you are typing in is SUBSIM.COM

not

SUBSKIPPER.COM :p

lol, subskipper.com :rotfl:

I think people are missing the point I'm trying to make. Historically speaking captains were moved up the ranks or relieved of command for failure to sink ships. Since SH4 is simulating you as captain, you being retired after X amount of patrols is historically correct.

However, I do agree the option should be made available for you to continue if you chose to. As you put it earlier Neon Deon, choice is always good.

Quillan · 04-25-07, 04:17 PM

It sounds to me like we're all in agreement there should be a realism checkbox for "Realistic career length", right? So why are we arguing?

Ducimus · 04-25-07, 04:26 PM

*shrug* weird. I after 6 patrols in a gato, i was given the option to continue the career or retire. Continuing cost me renown, which wasnt any problem since i had plenty of that banked up.

NEON DEON · 04-25-07, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

*shrug* weird. I after 6 patrols in a gato, i was given the option to continue the career or retire. Continuing cost me renown, which wasnt any problem since i had plenty of that banked up.

Ahh!

So you can go longer if you want.

How much renown did they hit you for?

04-25-07, 03:52 PM	#111
NEON DEON Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,207 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 5	Ok I will put it another way: The boats did not retire after 5 patrols. __________________ Diesel Boats Forever!

04-25-07, 04:17 PM	#118
Quillan Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 579 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	It sounds to me like we're all in agreement there should be a realism checkbox for "Realistic career length", right? So why are we arguing? __________________ We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

04-25-07, 04:05 PM	#115
DragonRR1 Officer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK Posts: 246 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	We complain where the game is historical, we complain where the game is not historical.. I'm sure most here can see arguments for terminating the career in a historical fashion or letting the player continue on in a more arcade fashion. I am quite certain the devs are aware that a number of users would like to see an option to continue the career. Personally I would like the option to be there but I don't see this issue as a number 1 priority. There are many other problems which I personally consider to be of more importance - AI, Torpedo type issues, the chronometer problem and so on.

04-25-07, 04:26 PM	#119
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	shrug weird. I after 6 patrols in a gato, i was given the option to continue the career or retire. Continuing cost me renown, which wasnt any problem since i had plenty of that banked up.