Gun Control thread (merged many)

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Strange Americans and their obsession with personal defense fire arms, something I never understood.

I mean I live in Russia and even in 90s (when crime was bad) our family never had a requirement for such personal defense.

Well, that might be because - as a European - you are living in chains of oppression...

[Buddahaid]

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Strange Americans and their obsession with personal defense fire arms, something I never understood.

I mean I live in Russia and even in 90s (when crime was bad) our family never had a requirement for such personal defense.

Think of the people in the USA that like personal firearms as "white" Russians circa 1918. Those people in the USA don't want to go the way of the "white" Russians so they have firearms. It's probably still going to happen, but at least it won't be quite so easy. The personal defensive nature against lower class democrats until then is just a side benefit.

[GoldenRivet]

Its in the American Psyche - men with firearms liberated themselves from what they considered to be the bonds of tyranny and our entire country was founded, and constitution written in such a way so as to prevent that from being necessary again... but the founding fathers had the foresight to write the constitution in such a way that - should a heated revolution become necessary again - the citizens would be more than subjects.

It frustrates me to hear people say that the second amendment is not necessary or that it should be repealed.

In a land that lends so much leverage to the concept that all men are created equal - a firearm is truly the great equalizer among men. it enables the frail and weak to stand toe to toe on equal ground with those who are strong.

Firearms also help us to ensure that our own government is not capable of this...



I believe it is unlikely to happen in America, i believe it probably never will

But i also accept that it is not impossible for it to happen in America

Thus, you may have to forgive me if my assortment of firearms collect dust in the safe for the time being

[CaptainHaplo]

A few points....

1) First and foremost, any firearm owner (whether carrying or not) has the responsibility to insure that their firearm(s) can not be accessed by a child without direct and intentional supervision. This is a matter of safety, and the woman who was killed failed in her responsibility to properly safeguard her firearm.

2) Idaho is an open carry state. Had the woman been exercising her 2A right in a way that did not require her to have a state sanctioned permission slip, the toddler would not have been able to accidentally discharge the firearm as it would not have been in her purse. One more example of why OC'ing is a valid choice (and my personal preference).

3) "Purse carry" is one of the worst ways for a woman to carry. Usually a thug is going to try and take her purse (as that is where cash/credit cards/etc are kept) - so at best she is going to be in a tug of war with someone over not only her other valuables, but the tool she needs to defend herself if the situation escalates to a deadly crisis.

4) The Geneva based Small Arms Survey estimated that there are an estimated 270 million guns LEGALLY owned in the US. So the percentage of gun owners that do stupid crap (like the woman that contributed heavily to her own death by stupity) is so miniscule as to be statistically insignificant. However, its a great story line for the anti-gun crowd, who will be more than happy to use it to push their agenda.

5) The percentage of guns legally purchased and then used by the legal purchaser to commit a crime is a fraction of 1%

6) The percentage of legally purchased guns used to commit crimes? About 6% of murders. Almost all gun crimes are committed using firearms that have been stolen.

Ultimately, gun owners are responsible for their firearms. If they choose not to treat them like the potentially dangerous (but not inherently dangerous) items they are, then they run the risk of harming themselves or others. No amount of "lawmaking" will change bad behavior - if it did then crime wouldn't exist. Remember - if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them....

[Oberon]

To be fair though, the Second Amendment is only valid if the army also defects to join whatever uprising against the tyrannical government takes place, otherwise all those 'patriots' with AR-15s will just be drone fodder.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Oberon

To be fair though, the Second Amendment is only valid if the army also defects to join whatever uprising against the tyrannical government takes place, otherwise all those 'patriots' with AR-15s will just be drone fodder.

Its an assumption that should a revolution in the States actually occur - the military would be fractured, and it is presumable that at least some of the military and its resources would side with the people.

Its impossible to know at this point

[Jimbuna]

Subscribed to.

[Schroeder]

The US has a different culture and is in a different situation than Europe. The US is flooded with weapons and no one can remove them again. Therefore every thug has a gun and I can understand that people don't feel safe anymore. What are they supposed to do? Ban weapons? Impossible as everybody has one and can hide them. One would never be able to find all guns and remove them so I guess it's just normal that people are gearing up in order to not be out gunned by thugs.

On the other hand here in comparatively quiet Europe we see these facts:
~30,000 gun related fatalities in the US every year. At roughly 320 million people it averages a 0.009 % likelihood to get killed by a gun per year. In 2013 3,340 people got killed in traffic related accident in Germany. With 80.7 million people the chance to get killed in traffic was 0.0041 % in that year.
That makes it about twice as likely to get killed by a gun in the US than to to be killed in traffic in Germany (calculated that myself with Wikipedia data so it's not dead accurate). That's why we are glad that our continent isn't flooded with weapons.
So guys, please have a look at both sides and the preconditions on both sides before getting into the eternal "Guns make us all safe, we need more guns to end death" vs. "You are all trigger happy idiots!" arguments.

[flostt]

A 2-year old bringing up enough force to actually pull a trigger?

How much force is needed, is this dependant on the type of weapon?

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by flostt

A 2-year old bringing up enough force to actually pull a trigger?

How much force is needed, is this dependant on the type of weapon?

Depends on the weapon. If the gun is loaded and "ready to go" then it doesn't take a lot of force to pull the trigger.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

To be fair though, the Second Amendment is only valid if the army also defects to join whatever uprising against the tyrannical government takes place, otherwise all those 'patriots' with AR-15s will just be drone fodder.

You sound pretty eager for that to happen Oberon seeing as how you express similar sentiments in every gun control thread. Are you just trolling or do you really wish our government would start killing it's citizens?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by August

You sound pretty eager for that to happen Oberon seeing as how you express similar sentiments in every gun control thread. Are you just trolling or do you really wish our government would start killing it's citizens?

No, he is just making a very good point.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

The US has a different culture and is in a different situation than Europe. The US is flooded with weapons and no one can remove them again. Therefore every thug has a gun and I can understand that people don't feel safe anymore. What are they supposed to do? Ban weapons? Impossible as everybody has one and can hide them. One would never be able to find all guns and remove them so I guess it's just normal that people are gearing up in order to not be out gunned by thugs.

On the other hand here in comparatively quiet Europe we see these facts:
~30,000 gun related fatalities in the US every year. At roughly 320 million people it averages a 0.009 % likelihood to get killed by a gun per year. In 2013 3,340 people got killed in traffic related accident in Germany. With 80.7 million people the chance to get killed in traffic was 0.0041 % in that year.
That makes it about twice as likely to get killed by a gun in the US than to to be killed in traffic in Germany (calculated that myself with Wikipedia data so it's not dead accurate). That's why we are glad that our continent isn't flooded with weapons.
So guys, please have a look at both sides and the preconditions on both sides before getting into the eternal "Guns make us all safe, we need more guns to end death" vs. "You are all trigger happy idiots!" arguments.

Well said. You've mentioned this 30,000 number a few times, perhaps we need to examine it. Of those 30,000 gun related deaths, 2/3 of those deaths are suicides. We both know that suicide is attainable by many methods other than guns; and in general, suicides only kill the person using the gun, so yours and my safety is not greatly affected by this portion of gun related deaths.

In 2012, there were approximately 8,896 homicides by guns, which is a lot more than anyone would like to see. In a population of 320 million, that means we have a 0.00003 chance of being shot and killed. What I would like to know (couldn't find it anywhere) is the breakdown of that 8,896 number by people killed in the commission of a crime vs killed by someone they know, crime of passion, etc. And it bears pointing out, of those 8,896 gun related deaths, don't you think many of them would have been carried out with a knife, club, or other weapons of force? Saying there are 9000 gun deaths does not focus on the fact that there were 9000 instances of violent crime, guns are just part of it.

MH said that firearms are too easy to obtain, and I agree; firearms are way too easy to get, just like driver's licenses and voting. What is the solution? Stricter laws regarding sales? Ok. Registering and cataloging weapons? I would be in for that, although I know many gun owners would fight it. Longer prison sentences for people found in possession of a firearm illegally? Many criticize the US for having the largest prison population, but I say screw 'em, we need more people in prison. When the day comes that gangs and street crime is as rare here as it is in Japan and Europe, then we have too many criminals on the wrong side of the bars. Like that guy in Australia, he had been arrested several times and was on bail for murdering his wife--he should have never been released until after the trial. And Eric Garner in NY, with all his arrests, he was still walking the streets, resisting arrest, and it cost him his life.

Guns are part of the problem, but the bigger issue is the entitlement class that the Democrats have created and the failure of the war on poverty. When I was in high school, it was typical to see several student's pickup trucks with gun racks, with .22 and shotguns, in the parking lot. It's a small, concentrated, disfunctional part of our society that causes the majority of gun crimes, and it's that part of our society that needs fixing.

PS: Not sure about your calculations but 320,000,000 / 32,000 = 0.00010, right?

[August]

Originally Posted by Dowly

No, he is just making a very good point.

In every thread, at every opportunity, hence the question.