UK Politics Thread

[Skybird]

TBH, I am a bit surprised by Johnson's proposals for the Irish issue, they are more reasonable than I would have expected. As a matter of fact in principle its the same kind of idea that I see as the only maybe possible option to break the deadlock. I have not yet understood this four-years thing, whether it is a just once or a self-repeating thing if the Irish see the need and desire. If it is a just-once thing, than the EU will not accept it, since then it would leave the option to the UK side to just sit out these four years once, and then pull Northern Ireland out of the agreement anyway.



It now will show who is the opinion-forming majority on side iof the EU leaders: those who want to prevent any successful Brexit that works for Britain anyway so to crfeate a precedence that you cannot leave the eU without breaking your own neck, or those who accept a compromise just to limit the mnutual damage for bioth sides, accepting that Britain may turn out successful with its leave in the long run. I have always argued tnat the eU wants no success for britain for principle rasons, But maybe now that the dealine is close, the minority of reaiosnable people, if there are any, can push the steering wheel around.


German newspapers titled with plenty of negative, sometimes even personally offending headlines. Johnson=Bulldozer, that is the common ground.



Yes, he is a bulldozer. Having a dozer with plenty of PS is the only way to clean a path through the rubble if you want to make your way through this stupid nuthouse parliament has become.


If the British people have sane minds, after Brexit they replace the dozer with a wrecking ball and level the whole place. They call it Westminster, after all the West is where the sun sets. Until then, Dozer: press the pedal to the metal and let the engine roar!


After he delivered, he must go. After all he shares major responsibility for the referendum's outcome three years ago, on the grounds of questionable numbers at best. I support him, but not for the reasons he gave as his arguments, but for different reasons. In other words: my motives are different than his.

[Jimbuna]

Sky, I think we are still a long way from reaching an agreement but not a long way before the clock stops ticking on the 31st.

If there is a genuine will from both sides to reach a deal then it will happen.

The alternative is multiple wounds to all parties, wounds that might take generations to heal and that is no good to anyone.

ATM I am at my most hopeful of a deal but I still can't see it happening just yet.

[Skybird]

EU/Junckers showed the expected reaction today: maximum demands and no indication of offering a valid concession. There have been no legally binding concessions by the EU since 3 years, but only the constant reflecting of any need to move and show willingness to compromise.


The British side ma ynot have shone with cleiverness and wittiness in the first two years of the "negotiation" process. But for the EU the whole negotiating was just a staged alibi from beginning on.


There shall be no chance for Britain to leave and be succesful with that. That is the imperial premisse for the EU overshadowing all and everything.


Its a fine difference Johnson made when leaving the decision on the Irish status to the Northern Irish regional parliament that it should re-assess and decide ionb every four years - the deicison is left to the Irish population, not to London. Note the silent non-chalance with which the EU does not even mention this. London has waived on the absolute control over this issue, indicated it is willing to leave it to who it affects most: the Irish in NI who can talk and coordinate with the republican Irish. Reply of the EU: No.


Thats the only thing they keep on saying since three years: No. Everything else they said in this time, was just irrelevant coating or legally non-binding shine.


NO.


Though shall not leave. Never.



If this were a face-to-face meeting, I would support the British to just slam a hard fist into the EU's face and then showing them the middle finger while leaving the place.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

If this were a face-to-face meeting, I would support the British to just slam a hard fist into the EU's face and then showing them the middle finger while leaving the place.

Spoken like a TRUE BRIT

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Spoken like a TRUE BRIT

Yep, I hope he moves to England, and soon.

[Kapitan]

This was bought on by a small debate in another thread so for the Europeans mainly, it will be a hot topic especially the brits among us.

In 2016 the UK held a referendum in which the voter had two options: Remain in the EU or Leave the EU

Sentiment ran very high and still does in the UK with both sides having strong feelings;

I have my own opinion and reasons why I voted the way I did and I am happy to discuss them, it would be interesting to see other peoples points of view including from inside other EU countries as well as outside the EU.

I don’t want this to turn into a flame war I’m sure we are grown up enough to have a reasonable debate / discussion putting our points of view across in a adult manner and not accusing / abusing people.

if it does go that way then im sure Jimbuna will happily lock the topic so lets just keep it civil.

[mapuc]

Why do you have all that fun

Here in Denmark
we had the Prime Minister's opening speech yesterday.
Today it was the Danish Parliament's openings debate and they answered each other very politely as it was pure Sunday school.

Not this rough discussion I see from the English Parliament.

Markus

[mapuc]

A very interesting discussion await us.

I have for long been hoping that some of you had create an EU-thread.

´cause EU affect most of us who are member on this forum.

Markus

[Catfish]

Who do you think will write here? Some haters, some resigners and a lot bored to death by brexit while China and Russia are laughing all the way long? And you 'Brits' should be more afraid of the US than just of all the EU. It is all about gut feeling and nationalism, not reasonable or well-based decision finding. I have heard all the arguments why the EU is so bad, and you can debunk 10 and there are a hundred new myths. Still discuss real advantages and shortcomings? No, i'm bored. Let the haters have their way.

Since this is a spin-off from Mapuc's thread i can comment, then i'm out and will the usual EU ranters and haters have their way.

"This was bought on by a small debate in another thread so for the Europeans mainly, it will be a hot topic especially the brits among us."
Well, i believe so.

"In 2016 the UK held a referendum in which the voter had two options: Remain in the EU or Leave the EU"
This was not meant as a referendum, but an informal question how the british population was leaning, towards the EU. By someone who put his personal career and the party line above what would have been the best for the country.
It was not a binding referendum. Apart from that one might say that people were misinformed (while you could translate this in "being lied to").

Sentiment ran very high and still does in the UK with both sides having strong feelings;
After all it was a narrow outcome, which most probably has changed by now after some realized who lied to them, and by what magnitude. Give the younger generation a chance again after they slept over the referendum? Better not, since a current outcome could well be 52 to 48 percent against brexit.
Whatever, the people are divided and there is not a clear-cut majority. It would have been better to make an official binding referendum, demand a 2/3 majority for changing and do not let types like Farage or Cummings climb the soap box while letting them spread lies without a proper answer or at least a rectification. This way there will be more division, adding to the medieval class society England is so proud of.

I have my own opinion and reasons why I voted the way I did and I am happy to discuss them, it would be interesting to see other peoples points of view including from inside other EU countries as well as outside the EU.
Yes by all means have your own opinion.
I wonder what happened if some 27 other countries' EU readers really posted their opinions about 'brexit'. Since this is foremost a small military forum i guess i know what the outcome will be here.

[Kapitan]

To take issue with some points of yours catfish:

Let the haters hate, and we were lied to (both sides lied)

No this isn’t what this is about every person is entitled to an opinion regardless if it for or against, I for one am not totally against the EU and what they wish to achieve, in fact right up until the last moment I was very much in favour of remaining in the EU.

What caused me to vote the way I did was based mainly on the industry I am in (Transport Industry)

My vote was not about immigration, or open borders and free movement I actually like the concept I do think it is a plus of the EU, however there has been some negatives associated with this.

For a start I had a lot of European guys working under me, Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian and Hungarian to name a few, I cant fault their willingness to work or their work ethic and over all they are fantastic guys.
I spent a lot of time socialising with them getting to know them and understand why they left their own countries, it boiled down to little to no work and low pay, so ok they want a better life good for them I applaud their decision its not an easy one to make.

They have concerns though for their own country which is understandable for example one of the drivers I’m close with who comes from Romania told me how his village had over 7,000 people in it, then after they joined the EU how people moved away himself included, he went back recently and there’s a little over 1,500 still in the village, so what has been achieved ? these countries join the EU and migration eventually strangles them and Romania is by no means unique.

That issue aside the main reason I voted to leave was because the EU legislation that governs the transport industry, on the whole the legislation is there to create an even playing field among all 27 member states, however it doesn’t.

In 2009 I witnessed a mass exodus from my industry, overnight we lost 11 drivers (some of my most senior and experienced) in the company I worked for out of 30, because they refused to pay for the new CPC qualification coming into force which was wedged through by the EU.
The main issue being for these drivers was that under the new legislation they would have to pay from their own pocket anywhere between 700-1500gbp to undertake 35 hours of periodic training, that’s 5 blocks of 7 hours, here’s another catch you can do the same course 5 times and pass ! the legislation went further to cripple them by stating that the training is classified as on duty, so therefore they could not be paid holiday pay or use holiday entitlement, companies were also not obliged to pay their staff while at the training session, what did that say to the drivers? Get out now!

We then find in 2011 that there has been a double standard, while our drivers were being inspected and sometimes issued fines, other European companies mainly from the Netherlands, France, Germany and Belgium, had differed their CPC legislation the last one adopted it in 2017.
On top of that today as it stands domestic carriers in certain countries (Netherlands, Belgium, France) don’t require their drivers to do a CPC at all.

The loss of drivers nearly folded the company and while you may think it is unique it wasn’t in all quite a fair few companies closed their doors, even the major hauliers cut back creating a large vacuum in the industry and we had a massive backlog of loads.
But what else happened the Rates did not go up to reflect the extra cost of doing business, it became extremely hard to find drivers even with an open market in the EU, I point out that the CPC was not welcome in nearly all EU states by the transport industry the one time we generally unified together.

Now that it is here the UK driver shortage which stood at 33,000 pre 2009 is not at over 50,000 today not because of expansion or inflation but because drivers are retiring the average age of a truck driver is 58 years old, and there is little young blood coming into the industry.

The other issue I have with the EU is the O Licencing conditions, not that many years ago we had a lot of small operators and owner operators, with the new financial levies for operation imposed on us by the EU it means these people have vanished, its now only the big guys with big fleets that can sustain the O licence conditions, owner drivers are few and far between now and few people aspire to own a fleet of trucks simply because you just couldn’t afford to do so with the initial start up cost and regulations.

I don’t feel that the EU was working for me or the industry I was in, it certainly didn’t support start ups within the transport industry, the world over it does appear the transport industry is shunned and looked down upon.

Here’s the reality of it though without the transport sector which is generally one of the largest sectors of any economy the whole thing falls apart you don’t even have a country to manage let alone food, or other items you wish to buy.

It makes me wonder why the EU wants to try and make it harder for us to transit the continent as well, this whole medicine shortage is also a nice little farce because most of the population will believe it without realising that even though the EU can control borders they cannot stop transit vehicles because that is managed by the United Nations under what we call T.I.R regulations, so all those who believe there will be a shortage of food and medicines if we leave, it just means a delay at the border but we can legally move them under the T.I.R Regs.

But on the whole that is a summary of sorts in why I voted to leave there are other bits but this was the main one when I sat down and thought about it all.

[Skybird]

Not wanting to prevent anything here, but I think the topic of Brexit is already well served in the UK thread, and I will restrain myself from repeating in this thread what already is being said in the other.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Yep, I hope he moves to England, and soon.

Nah Sky is staying put to tell it strait.

[JU_88]

What Sky said, and yeah I think at this point most are pretty tired of it and just want it to be over really.
The arguments over it go no where, I find those with the strongest opinions are not really able to unpack it properly, as their position is too emotionally rooted in nationalist or progressive - bile, i mean 'ideology' :P.
Bottom line is its very complicated, and Id be reluctant to trust anyone who paints it as simple from a one-sided P.O.V.

[Jimbuna]

I'll have to agree with Sky and Francis regarding the repetition to the UK thread and it is far easier to moderate one thread on the subject matter as opposed to two.

I'll give it a few hours for any who object to the above to say so then failing that I'll merge the threads.

TIA

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Why do you have all that fun

Here in Denmark
we had the Prime Minister's opening speech yesterday.
Today it was the Danish Parliament's openings debate and they answered each other very politely as it was pure Sunday school.

Not this rough discussion I see from the English Parliament.

Markus

Parliament is far too 'civilised' to stoop to those levels Markus