UK Politics Thread

[Catfish]

Ju88, it is hilarious how everyone still quotes Johnson's euromyths including you or this video with the "unelected blah". Fish packed in plastic? Curve of bananas? Unelected bureaucrats? It is hard to believe Johnson believes in the BS he repeats saying. He recently repeated the 350 million pounds bs again!
I have posted a 200+ point list of intentional lies and myths about the EU but obviously no one cares.

B.t.w. Johnson has been fired back then because of inventing things out of the blue in his time as a correspondent in Brussels. And now he quotes his own made-up.. things you do not call lies, for "evidence" ?

What would you do if people repeatedly lie about you, trying to influence others to believe those lies about you, and then say that they want to discuss things on even terms with you wih a straight face? Screw them. Kick them. Out. I am astonished about the EU's patience. This is by far the point that aggravates me most in the last weeks.


No one understands the brexiters, not even in Romania, Hungary or Poland. They certainly applaud supporting their right wingers' ideas and drawing their advantages, but understanding why England does that? No.
Ignoring certain behaviour and believing false claims will not prevent it from biting in the long run. I mean brexit lies, you mean the EU.

It is like someone telling you the sun circles the earth and the moon is made of green cheese. And you just stand there, helpless and wondering what has gone wrong in this society.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Ju88, it is hilarious how everyone still quotes Johnson's euromyths including you or this video with the "unelected blah". Fish packed in plastic? Curve of bananas? Unelected bureaucrats? It is hard to believe Johnson believes in the BS he repeats saying. He recently repeated the 350 million pounds bs again!
I have posted a 200+ point list of intentional lies and myths about the EU but obviously no one cares.

B.t.w. Johnson has been fired back then because of inventing things out of the blue in his time as a correspondent in Brussels. And now he quotes his own made-up.. things you do not call lies, for "evidence" ?

What would you do if people repeatedly lie about you, trying to influence others to believe those lies about you, and then say that they want to discuss things on even terms with you wih a straight face? Screw them. Kick them. Out. I am astonished about the EU's patience. This is by far the point that aggravates me most in the last weeks.


No one understands the brexiters, not even in Romania, Hungary or Poland. They certainly applaud supporting their right wingers' ideas and drawing their advantages, but understanding why England does that? No.
Ignoring certain behaviour and believing false claims will not prevent it from biting in the long run. I mean brexit lies, you mean the EU.

It is like someone telling you the sun circles the earth and the moon is made of green cheese. And you just stand there, helpless and wondering what has gone wrong in this society.

I didn't listen to brexiteers or Boris, and I didn't listen to remainers either.
I quickly learned that neither were really worth listening to.

In 2016, I avoided the talking heads and media entirely, instead I read, listened and watched as much 'neutral-ish' info on the EU as my fee time allowed. (because finding anything neutral was hard)
And after all that it was still a fairly tough call, but leaned towards Leave.

You repeating what Boris said is neither here nor there. I don't listen to Boris.
but even a stopped clock can be right twice a day.

The Eu is indeed run by bureaucrats split over 3 different institutions, Parliament, Court of Justice and Bank. they are not voted in by the people of the blocs member states. Policy and legislation is determined by a few - in back rooms, The MEPs (we CAN vote for) can vote yes or no when its presented to them, but they can't suggest revisions or changes. And if they vote no, revisions are made in back room and the legislation is presented back to them again.... and again until they vote 'Yes' and it can be passed. So when you vote for your MEP, you basically voting in a person who you hope can help QA all new EU legislation with as much power as the 'yes / no' button gives them. And they have no power to request anything be reappealled once its been passed.

So are you saying that's a Boris lie? or are you saying you consider that process to be democratic?

I'm not interested in hearing anymore about Boris - or projections about what east Europeans think of me, which are reliably based on?.... god knows what.
I'm not a Daily mail reader.
But Feel free to tell me why you think I should support the EU, instead of endlessly asserting that I'm being lied to. - I know, but we are all being lied to Catfish.

What it boils down to is that I believe Britain future chances of survival out side the EU, are marginally greater the EU's future survival as a whole.
Its a project based on slow but continuous expansion, that absorbs as much sovereign power as it reasonably can, It doesn't really want nations with indervidual Identities and democratic sovereign governments at all, those are inconveniences, it wants one uniform European Identity. One market, One Currency, One border, One Military. One big happy superstate built one piece at a time, and operated by a very small select few with almost no direct accountability to its people. Imagine how people would react if some one tried to introduce all of that collectivization and control in one decade?
yeah Its introduced very slowly and softly for a reason, to make it more palatable. But that is its ultimate ambition and its no secret, it openly and proudly admits as much..
Political, market and monetary union is fine, but that is really only the beginning as far as the EU is concerned.
To my mind that is both kinda creepy and over-ambitious, and i really don't think it will work, given Europe's demographic and significant cultural differences.
but I'll leave you to tell me why you think its a good thing.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by JU_88

My bottom line for why i lean on the leave side is simple, our current democratic system free from the EU increases our right to self determination (as a people), while being an EU member restricts it.
I prefer to be ruled by electable democrats (and their lobbyist mates), and not unelectable bureaucrats (and their lobbyist mates). Sorry I'd just rather not take the chance with politicians who are virtually accountable to no one.

(...)

The Eu is indeed run by bureaucrats - who are not voted in by the people of the blocs member states in any shape or form. Policy and legislation is determined by a few - in back rooms, The MEPs (we vote for) can vote yes or no when its presented to them, but they can't suggest revisions or changes. And if they vote no, revisions are made in back room and the legislation is presented back to them again.... and again until they vote 'Yes' and it can be passed.

Am I listening to myself here...?

[Catfish]

^^ So you did not get a voting ticket it the 2019 EU elections?

http://theconversation.com/european-...t-paper-116975

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/united...ng_system.html

[STEED]

Brexit: Labour urges Parliament recall after no-deal Brexit papers released

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49671566

That depends on the supreme court hearing next week.

[Catfish]

Already from 2018, with a lot of brexit lies laid open:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-the-brexiters

Lies or truth do not matter.
“It’s too late. We won and there’s nothing you little people can do about it.”
(Dominic Cummings)
The right does not want Britain to take back control. It wants to control Britain, and anyone who gets in its way is a fake, a grandstander, an enemy or saboteur. It has worked nicely, and England and the UK are on an interesting way.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^^ So you did not get a voting ticket it the 2019 EU elections?

http://theconversation.com/european-...t-paper-116975

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/united...ng_system.html

Kai, I think you may be drifting away from the point Francis is making. Your post quoted above is in relation to the election of MEP's when the point he is making (see below) is in regard to who actually determines policies and legislation.

=JU_88 The Eu is indeed run by bureaucrats - who are not voted in by the people of the blocs member states in any shape or form. Policy and legislation is determined by a few - in back rooms, The MEPs (we vote for) can vote yes or no when its presented to them, but they can't suggest revisions or changes. And if they vote no, revisions are made in back room and the legislation is presented back to them again.... and again until they vote 'Yes' and it can be passed.

[Jimbuna]

Boris Johnson has denied lying to the Queen over the advice he gave her over the five-week suspension of Parliament.

The prime minister was speaking after Scotland's highest civil court ruled on Wednesday the shutdown was unlawful.

Asked whether he had lied to the monarch about his reasons for the suspension, he replied: "Absolutely not." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49674516

Whilst on the topic of 'lies' I suppose Boris would have to say that so the Supreme Court will be the final arbiter.

[Catfish]

^^ i would call this representative democracy, which in no way is different from England's government elections, or german, or french etc., for that matter ?

"Every government has bureaucrats which are by nature unelected. While the EU has around 33,000 of them, the British government employs over 400,000 civil [my edit: unelected] servants."
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseupr/2019/...d-bureaucrats/

Also here:
https://www.economist.com/the-econom...ed-bureaucrats

The complaint might be that not only junior EU officials, but many senior ones are appointed rather than elected. This, too, is true of all governments. British papers that disparage the "unelected" Michel Barnier, the EU’s lead Brexit negotiator, would struggle to find a country that has an elected trade representative. And Juncker or now Mrs von der Leyen are not deciders or rulers of the executive, but rather mediators.

You vote for a person of whom you expect to represent your ideas most or best. True, in England some.. rulers are born into the house of Lords without having to prove competence or knowledge in a class society, nor do they need to have a people's majority for their position.
(But as Stephen Fry said, "why not, as long as it works")
Not that elected politicians are necessarily better qualified, though there are some (even if it's a rare breed).

But you cannot quite compare this to the EU, and the "unelected bureaucrats" acccusation does not hold water. No, indeed it does not, look at the links i posted, and not for the first time.

[JU_88]

MEP's cannot present your ideas at all, they can In accordance with your ideals. Vote yes or no to the ideas presented to them that were draughted behind closed doors, by the special people.

You the voter of the MEP have the most distant and watered down impact imaginable. Its great we can vote for MEPs, unfortuntley MEPs can't do very much.

A Guardian opinion peice on Brexiteers? hmm, I'm sure that will be fair and balanced.
Would you unironically read a Daily Express opinion piece on Remainers?

Anyway I've not heard of Dominic Cummings, any reason should I care about him or Nick Cohens opinion? Catfish?

Look maybe we leave with no deal on the 31st (probably not) and all the Remain Predictions will come true. Then I will happily admit i got it wrong, until then its just more chatter,
I'm fairly content I reached my own conclusion with out listening to too many hacks along way. Who lied about what and who claimed what is quite irrelevant to me personally.
i don't even know who half these people are.

I'll read your links when you read my personal reasons for a being a EU skeptic and respond with something relevant to that.
Rather than over simplified 'this why Brexiteers are stupid and horrible' points.

And you can note that not once, have I said anything derogatory about Remainers in general.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Anyway I've not heard of Dominic Cummings, any reason should I care about him or Nick Cohens opinion? Catfish?

You jest...surely?

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

You jest...surely?

No Seriously. I don't really know him. You've read my thoughts Jim, would reading about this Dominic Cummings being a 'See you next tuesday' change my mind do you think?

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

You jest...surely?

No Seriously. I don't really know him. You've read my thoughts Jim, would reading about this Dominic Cummings being 'See you next tuesday' change my mind do you think?

I don't really care who is the face of remain or leave, Is Brexit a personality contest?
I only really care about the actual context of remaining or leaving. These Names and faces will probably not matter in 5 years.
Its a game of 'Look kids, this bad person is aligned with your belief in some way, you don't want us think of you as a bad person! do you?
Pathetic.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by JU_88

No Seriously. I don't really know him. You've read my thoughts Jim, would reading about this Dominic Cummings being 'See you next tuesday' change my mind do you think?

I don't really care who is the face of remain or leave, Is Brexit a personality contest?
I only really care about the actual context of remaining or leaving. These Names and faces will probably not matter in 5 years.
Its a game of 'Look kids, this bad person is aligned with your belief in some way, you don't want me/us think of you as a bad person too, do you?
Pathetic.

He's the current special adviser to Boris and not everyones cup of tea apparently.

Dominic Mckenzie Cummings (born 25 November 1971) is a British political strategist. From 2007 to 2014, he was a special adviser to the then Education Secretary, Michael Gove. From 2015 to 2016 he was the campaign director of Vote Leave, an organisation opposed to continued British membership of the European Union that took an active part in the 2016 referendum campaign on that issue. In July 2019, new Prime Minister Boris Johnson appointed him the role of special adviser to the government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_Cummings

[JU_88]

Is there any member of Conservative party whos everyone's cup of tea ?
I expect he may well be a douche, but it probably wont make much difference at this point.