New president IRAN: Wipe Israel of face of the earth !

[caspofungin]

you got that right. i'm always 50/50 deciding to post a reply to some of these posts/threads. i mean, i know i'm not going to change anyone's mind...

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

you got that right. i'm always 50/50 deciding to post a reply to some of these posts/threads. i mean, i know i'm not going to change anyone's mind...

Not necessairily true.
I have changed a long held position after reading some links in discussions on this forum. And just reading the position of somebody else can be enlightening, even if it does not directly change my mind.

Lately I have been debating with Kissaki. He draws a clear distinction between fundamental Muslims and general Islam. I see less and less of that distinction when I hear about Muslim 'education' on religious schools in Pakistan. I also think that the 'Western' Muslims are realy having a hard time accepting Western values and being serious (fundamental) as a Muslim. I think they are a relative small group of progressive and enlighted Muslims.
But these opinions of mine are being formed right now and I appreciate it to be criticised...

Am I not right that Islam has a strong political component because the Sharia will always dominate any National or local law?
And isn't this because the idea of a separation between State and Religion is absent in Islam, basically because the concept of Islam is from the - pre-Nation - 7th century Arab peninsula?

[caspofungin]

you're absolutely right -- the quran and the hadith (holy laws) do have parts that relate to government of people. But at the same time, no arab country today follows those laws -- not even iran, or the taleban in pre-2002 afghanistan. a lot of it has to do with the responsibilities of a ruler -- responsibilities to his people's welfare -- and the responsibilities of people to society as a whole. There's a difference between true islamic law and islamic law interpreted through cultural bias. that's why even though 2 arab countries may claim to follow sharia law, it will be very different in each. there's things you can do freely in sudan that will get you thrown in jail in saudi arabia.

it would be like equating canada and australia, for example. both western democracies, both majority christian, both with a legal system derived from the uk, but very different societies nonetheless, due to cultural differences. some guy from yemen might see them as exactly the same, but someone from the us knows they're very different. same with arab countries.

and muslims that aren't against the west aren't the minority, they're the majority. unfortunately, the media and your politicians feel it makes a better story or gets more votes to show islam as exclusively the domain of mullahs burning the israeli flag. that's part of it. the other part is that the west, since 1923, has propped up monarchies and dictatorships to secure the supply of cheap oil. suddenly, when they realize the ong-term cost of such a policy, there's a clamour of "why can't you guys clean your house" or other such comments. well, how long did it take for modern western democracies to form? certainly more than a few decades.

take the us -- almost 200 hundred years from the bill of rights to actually allowing every citizen to vote. or the uk, or france, or germany. all went through a long and painful series of changes before emerging as true democracies.

[Type941]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

we should lock up the missionaries.

well don't lock them up, but i have let's say a certain degree of skeptecism about the missionaries...

Originally Posted by caspofungin

...is islam a danger because the precepts of its adherents are different to your own, and they are a threat to the local traditions?

Yes you damn right it is a danger. I don't want to live in a muslim state, and it's my country - that's my right. If some immigrants come here for better way of life, they should integrate into the culture, not assimilate. I'm from a familty that imigrated. There are things like respecting the local culture, local mentality and embracing it, being grateful for the opportunities it gives. From what I know, muslim immigrants prefer to gather into their own groups, lead their own way of life, and noone knows what's going on in these communities until some reporter finds out that this Imam Abduk Fehdik is preaching death to all christians and infidels, and my kid is going to school 2 blocks away. you guys are amazing when you try to use logic, say things like 'we should educate those moderates so they are critical or radicals'. It's blind hiding head in the sand.

It's like giving prisoners with 'good behavior' the role of keeping the rest under watch, running the prison, etc. Can you really trust them ?

[WutWuzDat]

Originally Posted by Terrax

I see you're still politically correct as ever Sixpack .


While I think all religions have retarded and moronic aspects to them, the Christians and Muslims have been fighting (directly and indirectly) for thousands of years. When the Christians rapidly spread across the planet, they peacefully converted all who would listen, and forcefully those who wouldn't. The Muslims, for the most part stayed home, and as a result Christians were the majority, and Islam and other religions were the minority. Now, as Muslim countries become rich, their citizens are traveling the world converting all who will listen, slowly but steadily eating away at the Christian majority. Some are preaching peace, some are preaching war. Muslim countries are also buying better weapons, including nuclear weapons as they, ironically, become richer selling oil to Christian counties.

I think about 10 - 25 years from now, this will all come to a boiling point. All the major players on both sides will have WMD, and will get down to business of solving this centuries old conflict for good.

Agree 100%. Just read Revelation.

If you read the Koran it has places in there that says everyone who dose not convert to Islam is to be killed. That is why Islam is so dangerous.

I for one don't want to live in a Muslim country. If they had their way, all non-muslims would be killed.

[Abraham]

@ Type941:
I share your worries to a certain extend and I feel we can criticise each other on this forum (I have criticised and have been criticised) but please don't generalise the way you do in your answer to caspofungin. He could easily mistake your posting for a personal attack. We know caspofugin and Konovalov are Muslims but always willing to respond to positive criticism. Discussing religion is a touchy thing. Let's refrain from getting too personal, let's make them feel welcome and keep them on board, it makes for a much nicer discussion...

Originally Posted by caspofungin

you're absolutely right -- the quran and the hadith (holy laws) do have parts that relate to government of people. But at the same time, no arab country today follows those laws -- not even iran, or the taleban in pre-2002 afghanistan.

That proves to me that those rules are outdated and can't be applied to a modern society anymore. And you really can't expect anything else from a 7th century concept in my view. Christianity does not pretend to have a concept of a Theocracy. A few feeble attempts have been made in history, but really by extremists. I think the reason is that Christianity was concieved within a state, the Roman Empire, and in it's origins never went after political power (of course Christianity was often misused by rulers for propaganda motives to fight wars, but that's a different question).

Originally Posted by caspofungin

and muslims that aren't against the west aren't the minority, they're the majority.

I'm absolutely convinced of that the majority of Muslims in Europe and the US want to be decent citizens and practice their religion in peace. However if 70% of British Muslims condem the 7/7 attacks, it still means that 30% does not. I guess we are talking about several hundred thousand people here. At the same time 60% says they would not report suspicious activities to the authorities.
If anything like recent terror attacks would be done by Christians, I would be very ashamed and clearly distance myself (as a Christian) from it. I see too little of that in the Muslim world (could perhaps be a cultural phenomenon though?). It's their problem first and formost and they should be eager to solve it.

Furthermore, to solve it we should openly name it Muslim terrorism and accept that it is a Muslim problem.
From history I know that the Christian church has been involved in politics - always wrong for a church - and has subsequently made bad mistakes. The only way to solve that has been to take responsability and get it in the open. Ducking the problem creates confusion amoug the believers. Don't blame others, don't compare with others, solve it yourself.
The Muslim terrorists of today are a result of (a false) Muslim ideology. The Muslim world should make it cristal clear that terror is not tolerated (but it doesn't!). That would really improve the relation between Muslims living in the West and their hosts.
And somehow we will have to live together in order to avoid a tragedy.

[Type941]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Furthermore, we should openly name it Muslim terrorism and accept that it is a Muslim problem.

Sadly or not, but it's no longer just a Muslim problem.


I wasnt't trying to offend someone peronally, but at the same time I feel like all to often being a white christian european we have to keep shut at whatever anyone's saying because supposedly we always racially abused anyone of different race and in shame, must be quite now. Not so.

I wish we could all live well and get along accept all religions and welcome all new, but at a financial and health risk to my family and myself? Sometimes it makes you think when enough is enough.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Type941

I wasnt't trying to offend someone peronally, but at the same time I feel like all to often being a white christian european we have to keep shut at whatever anyone's saying because supposedly we always racially abused anyone of different race and in shame, must be quite now. Not so.

I'm a white guy of Euro origin just like you. I'm of Australian birth with my family history going back to England and Sweden.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

You have a three muslim men in front of you. One is 18, the second is 21, and the third is 24 and you know one of them is a suicide bomber. Which one is it? The reality is you don't know. You let the wrong one go and a lot of innocent lives will be lost. The answer is all three are your enemy.

Thats cold blooded but you don't have much of a choice when Islamic extremist are not policed by there own countries or are even supported by their countries.

To kill an enemy you are probably going to have to fight like them.
You can't fight with rules when those you are fighting have no rules.

How do you know that these three men are Muslims? Do they have it stamped on thier forehead? I see so many Asian looking guys around London. Now unless they are wearing a Muslim prayer cap or shout at the top of thier lungs "I'm a Muslim" then there is no way for me to know. They could be Hindu, Seihk, Christian, Athiest, or something else entirely. Just like any great world religion that persons ethnicity could be anything. They could be white Euro, African, Carribbean, North American, South American, central Asian, or South East Asian.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

Regarding "Islamic intolerance" for all other faiths -- when you are learning the Quran, the 6th Surah you learn ends with "To you your religion, and to me my religion." Tolerance of other religions was -- is -- ingrained in my upbringing, just like that of millions of other Muslims.

Indeed, you are spot on the mark. Alhumdulillah.

Originally Posted by caspofungin

Sure, there's millions of Muslims that are anti-Semitic -- just like there's millions of Christians that are anti-Semitic, or millions of Hindus that are anti-Muslim. And spare me the "holier than thou" arguments that are forming while you read this. There's a sizeable element of the American or Israeli nations that wouldn't mind lining up a bunch of Arbas/Muslims and shooting them dead, regardless of their innocence -- just like theres many Muslims that would do exactly the same thing to Christians or Jews given the opportunity.

People are people -- they stick with those that are like them, and dislike or even despise those that aren't. Religion is just another category to base likes and dislikes upon, just like skin color.

Again so right you are.

[Type941]

Getting back to the focus of the topic. I think the iranian president has had to do it to identify his position to his own people, first and foremost, but also to all arab nations around. The arab nations or muslim nations, the bottom line is they all don't want Israel there. I think it's safe to say. And while A******zan chose a rather stupid way of announcing it, it doesn't matter if he says it or not. It's a fact - they will not live in peace until Israel is gone. That's the reality.

It don't think Iran actually means to destroy Israel as soon as possible and is preparing. But having said what he did, now it gives a very strong case for the US and its allies to go to UN and ask for sanctions, exclusion from UN, claim of nuke weapon development, you name it. Even Russia kinda of had to wash hands and say 'heck, now you've done it'. Russia is trying to sit on 2 chairs at the same time, be friends with US and trade with Iran. Unfortunately, Russia has no control over what Iran choses to speak about. And Iran knows that the threats US is waving at them are only threats (note, there is never a case of Iranian president calling a US Amabassador to its palace and giving him a note of dissatisfaction with the statements US makes! :rotfl: )

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Nor are Muslims in our countries. Though it may please you to think so. When we get to the bottom of things though, what seems perfectly normal here may seem backward there, and vice versa - it's a matter of cultural perspective. How can you expect people to act contrary to their cultural upbringing?

I am not expecting anyone to act contrary to their cultural upbringing, that's unrealistic in most cases. Which is exactly why I am strongly opposed to multicultural societies if the cultures involved have seriously conflicting backgrounds. If they do not want to act contrary to their cultural upbringing, that's OK, but then they should not come to Western countries and start demanding that we conform to their desires. And that's exactly what's happening.

My subjective opinion: Western culture is superior to theirs. And even they seem to agree to some extent, for practical matters, as many come here for economic reasons. But then they still want to impose their culture and religion, because they feel ours doesn't quite fit their expectations. One would have to be insane to support someone trying to replace your superior culture with his inferior one, no? In fact, anyone doing so could be considered a traitor.

And yes, imposing their culture is what they want to do. We see a really bad trend in Europe, with Islamists trying to grab power in cities where muslims are numerous, threatening and even killing people who criticise their religion, raping girls that don't behave the way a muslim girl should behave (even if it is not a muslim girl), attacking Jews, and to make matters worse we also have quite a few Westerners who can be called traitors in the way described above.

But, you can say, those are just extremists and criminals, and most muslims are not like that. Sure. I agree. The problem is, in that majority of non-extremists, will we find many who are loyal to the Western societies that host them? Or will they join the fanatics when their numbers become sufficient to start taking over, because the fanatics' view of society, while a bit too extreme for them, is still closer to what they want than our current society? Or maybe they just won't dare to oppose them?

While it certainly is unfair to look at a group of people as if it were composed only of its nastiest members, one has to keep in mind that the nastiest ones are likely to be far more active than the average decent guy, and will have much more impact on the group.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

Indeed, you are spot on the mark. Alhumdulillah.

Which verse in Surah 6 is that?

What about Surah 6, verse 125:

Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.

What about Surah 9, verses 29 & 30:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

BTW, there is no historical reference anywhere about Jews calling someone named 'Uzair' a "son of Allah" - unless this was some hereto unknown recluse sect of Jews somewhere in Arabia. It certainly doesn't make sense according to the traditional Islamic interpertation of 'Uzair' being 'Ezra' the prophet, who was critical in returning the Jews from their Babylonian exile and beginningn the rebuilding of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem. But this is a separate matter.

[caspofungin]

not surah 6, the 6th surah you learn -- starting at the end, since those are shorter. "Al Kafiroon" -- The Unbelievers.

I haven't read the Torah, but I have read the Bible -- and there's plenty of bits in there about how those that don't believe are doomed/cursed/whatever. Same in all religions, afaik.

And since we're quoting -- Surah 2, "Al Bagara" -- The Cow

"Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabaeans, whoso believe in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness -- their wages awaits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."

[caspofungin]

they should not come to Western countries and start demanding that we conform to their desires. And that's exactly what's happening...

...But, you can say, those are just extremists and criminals, and most muslims are not like that. Sure. I agree. The problem is, in that majority of non-extremists, will we find many who are loyal to the Western societies that host them? Or will they join the fanatics when their numbers become sufficient to start taking over, because the fanatics' view of society, while a bit too extreme for them, is still closer to what they want than our current society? Or maybe they just won't dare to oppose them?

While it certainly is unfair to look at a group of people as if it were composed only of its nastiest members, one has to keep in mind that the nastiest ones are likely to be far more active than the average decent guy, and will have much more impact on the group.

i agree with you completely -- this is the crux of the problem. Solution? I don't know. But ignorance about Islam and Muslims, generalizations perpetuated by the media and self-serving politicians certainly doesn't help things.