Creation >> DNA Code - Page 7

Sailor Steve · 03-24-12, 05:45 PM

@ u crank: I can see where heartc is coming from, though I'm of two minds on the subject. God destroyed Soddom and Gamorah. Because of homosexuality? Some modern Christians will tell you so. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. What is relevant to heartc's argument is that God did indeed kill all those people. Were his reasons valid? If you're a believer, how do you question God? His reasons must have been valid. If you're not a believer, then the only thing you can say is that the Holy Bible says that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the God of the Christians, wantonly killed several thousand people and doesn't have to defend himself because he's God, and believers praise him for it. He then ordered Joshua to exterminate an entire race, and the Israelites suffered punishment from Him when they didn't get the job done.

"The Lord moves in mysterious ways." Believers don't question God because God is perfect, and not to be questioned. Non-believers question whether the stories are even true, and if so how could any being behave so callously? Some ask those questions sarcastically, because they do believe it's not true. But some question honestly, and their questions deserve consideration. If answers are not possible, then why should they believe? If answers are possible, the what are they?

Me, I don't know, and that leaves me with lots of questions. The above are not among them. I'm not challenging anybody to prove anything unless they make direct claims of knowledge. The Bible is a book that may be true or may be full of stories. Believe whichever you like. I neither believe nor disbelieve.

Heartc seems to be full of anger over this question. I'm not defending his arguments because I don't feel that way. I am saying, however, that they do have some validity.

u crank · 03-24-12, 07:01 PM

@ Sailor Steve: First Steve I would like to commend you for your honesty. It's rare in debates like this one. It's much better to say you don't know than to hold a dogmatic position on something that cannot be proven.

I have believed in God for almost thirty years and my views and beliefs have changed quite a bit in those years. I don't belong to any organization or church. I use to but I asked all the wrong questions and never got a satisfactory answer for any. What I'm most interested in is finding out the truth, whatever that may be. I will admit to you, heartc and anybody else that there is a lot of things about God I do not understand. One thing I do believe is that God wants us to question Him. He claims to be an intelligent and reasonable being. Says so in the Book. If this wasn't so I could be persuaded to give it up.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah and all that I have no answer, but that's just one of many topics I could say that about. I'm still learning and there is much more to learn.

I believe that every bodies arguments should be heard and considered. I may not agree with them but I am open to any relevant thoughts.

Sailor Steve · 03-24-12, 08:14 PM

And I'll commend right back. I don't argue for or against the existence of God, other than to say I see no evidence. That doesn't convince me to be an atheist. I tried that, and had just as many questions and just as few answers. As I always say, my only real disagreement is with people who insist they know the truth. In the words of a song I wrote: "I may be right and I may be wrong, but the same is true for you. I know I don't know anything, but I think you only think you do."

u crank · 03-24-12, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

"I may be right and I may be wrong, but the same is true for you. I know I don't know anything, but I think you only think you do."

I like it Steve. Sounds like a hit.

I don't think it's my duty to convince any one that there is a God. If it were possible it would have been done already. Everyone has to find their own path. The best I can do is wish you and anyone else well on that road.

And I do . Peace and regards.

heartc · 03-24-12, 08:37 PM

@u crank: You're just making up your own religion as you go, by picking and choosing the parts you like, like most "Christians" do. That's why you "don't have answers" to all the ugly and genocidal actions, either ordered or commited by the bible god. There's nothing mysterious about ordering your home team to loot a village, kill every living thing therein, to "not show mercy on the children", or taking the virgins as spoils of war, there is nothing to understand about the appalling actions and commands other than that they are appalling.
And as I already said, the idea of treating other people decently (how does that compute with those stories...?) is not originating from the desert god. If that is all you take from that book and pretend to "not understand" the ugly parts and stupid laws, then merrily going on ignoring them, you have no basis for calling yourself a "Christian". Either your god is real and has divinely inspired the authors and composers of your book so that you have no business picking and choosing and redefining your god as to what you "feel" he is, or you assembled him from the parts you like and he exists only in your head.

"One thing I do believe is that God wants us to question Him."

Wrong. You obviously haven't read the book of Job (for example) in any detail, have you? In there, towards the end of the book, over several pages your god is ranting out of a thunderstorm at Job on how he has no business whatsoever to question "Him".

Look, if you need an invisible man in the sky as a reason to act in a moral manner, then by all means go for it. Just don't pretend it has anything to do with the figure described in the bible that condoned slavery and ordered the slaughtering of children.

Sailor Steve · 03-24-12, 11:15 PM

First, you might want to reduce that to one paragraph and post a link to the rest. Subsim got into trouble not long ago when someone copied and pasted an entire article. Even putting the copyright information in didn't stop the author from asking nicely, with a subtle warning implied.

As to the article itself, it's interesting how he juxtaposes Hebrew and Greek mythology, but then tries to show that 17th-century science is derived from the Torah. Mostly he leaps around a lot and doesn't say much. His quote from Ecclesiastes has more to do with philosophy than science, and he never shows a real connection, just implications with no cause or justification.

Modern science owes more to the Enlightenment than to Homer or the Bible. Neither Homer nor the Biblical authors were concerned with discovering the world around us. One, as he points out, was concerned with telling stories about gods and men. The other was concerned with teaching a lesson about man's duty to God. Both spoke as if they expected their audience to take the story at face value; neither ever claimed to be an eyewitness to the deeds done, and never offered any proof of their claims. Therefore, neither has anything to do with science, ancient or modern.

That some scientists and mathematicians attribute the laws of the universe to God is fine. It also doesn't make them right, just believers.

heartc · 03-25-12, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

First, you might want to reduce that to one paragraph and post a link to the rest. Subsim got into trouble not long ago when someone copied and pasted an entire article. Even putting the copyright information in didn't stop the author from asking nicely, with a subtle warning implied.

Uhm, I get the feeling there is a post missing between my previous one and yours, right?

u crank · 03-25-12, 08:33 AM

@ heartc:

Quote:

Originally Posted by heartc

@u crank: You're just making up your own religion as you go, by picking and choosing the parts you like, like most "Christians" do. That's why you "don't have answers" to all the ugly and genocidal actions, either ordered or commited by the bible god.

Let me see if I've got this straight. You do not believe in this 'desert god' but you are setting up the rules and criteria for others who do. What I actually think you are doing is trying to hold me and others who believe responsible for things that God has done. Sorry friend it doesn't work that way. I don't deny that these things are in the Bible but there is a huge difference between denial and not having an answer. You need to take this complaint to head office. I hear it's open 24/7.

As to your saying I'm picking and choosing you will have to be more specific. What I did say is what I think God says is now important. Most people who have studied this book would agree on this point, that in the Old Testament God was dealing with a group of people, The Hebrews, but in this present age He is dealing with each person individually. Looks like a progression to me. I like it.

As to the book of Job, yes I have read it. Job 13:3 " But I would speak to the Almighty and I desire to argue my case with God." Isaiah 1:18 "Come now and let us argue it out, says the Lord." Seems like a discussion to me.

Finally you need to be aware of the criteria for being a Christian. There is only one that I know of. That is believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Savior. This works for young and old, rich and poor, gay or straight, moron or intellectually brilliant. It is the great leveller and only qualifier that I am aware of. If I am wrong on this one point then I respectfully concede all arguments.

Peace and regards.

Blood_splat · 03-25-12, 10:39 AM

I like what Matt Dillahunty has to say.

Sailor Steve · 03-25-12, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood_splat

I like what Matt Dillahunty has to say.

So do I. I had never even heard of these guys, but after listening to them if I didn't know better I'd think I listened to them every day.

I like those guys!

Dowly · 03-25-12, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

So do I. I had never even heard of these guys, but after listening to them if I didn't know better I'd think I listened to them every day.

I like those guys!

Aye, AE's a great show to listen to. They tend to be a bit provocative at times, but they also know their stuff.

All their shows are archived on their website:
http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/

heartc · 03-25-12, 12:30 PM

@u crank:
It's really tiresome to discuss their religion with the religious when they don't even know what their book says and start contradicting the words of their own god, as you again have done here. But their book is full of contradictions, anyway, and if they haven't noticed that yet, then it's not surprising that they don't notice their own contradiction to it either. Just as the different anonymous and very human authors of the books / scrolls in the Bible have contradicted each other, and later on some people decided to put some of those books together, and some not, and called it "The Holy Bible / The Word of God".

I might come back to your post more specifically later once I find the nerve for it. But you doing things like:

Quote:

Originally Posted by u crank

As to the book of Job, yes I have read it. Job 13:3 " But I would speak to the Almighty and I desire to argue my case with God." Isaiah 1:18 "Come now and let us argue it out, says the Lord." Seems like a discussion to me.

i.e., putting two totally unrelated verses from two different books - or "chapters" - right together, as if this was an answer that God gave to Job, even saying "Seems like a discussion to me", while in the real story your god ranted at Job for several pages about how he must not dare question him, makes me wonder if it is even worth the hassle if you are that intellectually dishonest / incoherent.

And as if this wasn't ridiculous enough already, it wasn't even a good hack job, since this "let us reason together" from Isaiah that you quoted has nothing to do with "discussing with / questioning God", instead it is god saying "listen up, I'm gonna explain something to you", which is clear from the context:

Quote:

KJV, Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Hell, it is even quite the opposite of God being in a mood for questioning. LOL.

@Blood splat:

Good link. This one is also fun:

Sailor Steve · 03-25-12, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heartc

Uhm, I get the feeling there is a post missing between my previous one and yours, right?

Yep. Rockstar deleted the post. He didn't need to do that; a paragraph and a like would have done nicely. Now I can't even find the article to relink it.

Oh well...

Nicolas · 03-25-12, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Aye, AE's a great show to listen to. They tend to be a bit provocative at times, but they also know their stuff.

All their shows are archived on their website:
http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/

They know how to be enemy of God, good... why do that. Scandal increase ratings on TV, a preaching saying basic principles of moral causes people to change the channel.

Nicolas · 03-25-12, 05:22 PM

Blood_slpat video link.
Look at the expression of the face 0:50 'what an opportunity to do damage...' when defenseless guy at the phone asks .

03-24-12, 05:45 PM	#91
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	@ u crank: I can see where heartc is coming from, though I'm of two minds on the subject. God destroyed Soddom and Gamorah. Because of homosexuality? Some modern Christians will tell you so. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. What is relevant to heartc's argument is that God did indeed kill all those people. Were his reasons valid? If you're a believer, how do you question God? His reasons must have been valid. If you're not a believer, then the only thing you can say is that the Holy Bible says that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the God of the Christians, wantonly killed several thousand people and doesn't have to defend himself because he's God, and believers praise him for it. He then ordered Joshua to exterminate an entire race, and the Israelites suffered punishment from Him when they didn't get the job done. "The Lord moves in mysterious ways." Believers don't question God because God is perfect, and not to be questioned. Non-believers question whether the stories are even true, and if so how could any being behave so callously? Some ask those questions sarcastically, because they do believe it's not true. But some question honestly, and their questions deserve consideration. If answers are not possible, then why should they believe? If answers are possible, the what are they? Me, I don't know, and that leaves me with lots of questions. The above are not among them. I'm not challenging anybody to prove anything unless they make direct claims of knowledge. The Bible is a book that may be true or may be full of stories. Believe whichever you like. I neither believe nor disbelieve. Heartc seems to be full of anger over this question. I'm not defending his arguments because I don't feel that way. I am saying, however, that they do have some validity. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-24-12, 07:01 PM	#92
u crank Old enough to know better Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Prince Edward Island Posts: 11,745 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 0	@ Sailor Steve: First Steve I would like to commend you for your honesty. It's rare in debates like this one. It's much better to say you don't know than to hold a dogmatic position on something that cannot be proven. I have believed in God for almost thirty years and my views and beliefs have changed quite a bit in those years. I don't belong to any organization or church. I use to but I asked all the wrong questions and never got a satisfactory answer for any. What I'm most interested in is finding out the truth, whatever that may be. I will admit to you, heartc and anybody else that there is a lot of things about God I do not understand. One thing I do believe is that God wants us to question Him. He claims to be an intelligent and reasonable being. Says so in the Book. If this wasn't so I could be persuaded to give it up. As for Sodom and Gomorrah and all that I have no answer, but that's just one of many topics I could say that about. I'm still learning and there is much more to learn. I believe that every bodies arguments should be heard and considered. I may not agree with them but I am open to any relevant thoughts. __________________ “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.” ― Arthur C. Clarke

03-24-12, 08:14 PM	#93
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	And I'll commend right back. I don't argue for or against the existence of God, other than to say I see no evidence. That doesn't convince me to be an atheist. I tried that, and had just as many questions and just as few answers. As I always say, my only real disagreement is with people who insist they know the truth. In the words of a song I wrote: "I may be right and I may be wrong, but the same is true for you. I know I don't know anything, but I think you only think you do." __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-24-12, 08:37 PM	#95
heartc Samurai Navy Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 562 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	@u crank: You're just making up your own religion as you go, by picking and choosing the parts you like, like most "Christians" do. That's why you "don't have answers" to all the ugly and genocidal actions, either ordered or commited by the bible god. There's nothing mysterious about ordering your home team to loot a village, kill every living thing therein, to "not show mercy on the children", or taking the virgins as spoils of war, there is nothing to understand about the appalling actions and commands other than that they are appalling. And as I already said, the idea of treating other people decently (how does that compute with those stories...?) is not originating from the desert god. If that is all you take from that book and pretend to "not understand" the ugly parts and stupid laws, then merrily going on ignoring them, you have no basis for calling yourself a "Christian". Either your god is real and has divinely inspired the authors and composers of your book so that you have no business picking and choosing and redefining your god as to what you "feel" he is, or you assembled him from the parts you like and he exists only in your head. "One thing I do believe is that God wants us to question Him." Wrong. You obviously haven't read the book of Job (for example) in any detail, have you? In there, towards the end of the book, over several pages your god is ranting out of a thunderstorm at Job on how he has no business whatsoever to question "Him". Look, if you need an invisible man in the sky as a reason to act in a moral manner, then by all means go for it. Just don't pretend it has anything to do with the figure described in the bible that condoned slavery and ordered the slaughtering of children. __________________

03-24-12, 11:15 PM	#96
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	First, you might want to reduce that to one paragraph and post a link to the rest. Subsim got into trouble not long ago when someone copied and pasted an entire article. Even putting the copyright information in didn't stop the author from asking nicely, with a subtle warning implied. As to the article itself, it's interesting how he juxtaposes Hebrew and Greek mythology, but then tries to show that 17th-century science is derived from the Torah. Mostly he leaps around a lot and doesn't say much. His quote from Ecclesiastes has more to do with philosophy than science, and he never shows a real connection, just implications with no cause or justification. Modern science owes more to the Enlightenment than to Homer or the Bible. Neither Homer nor the Biblical authors were concerned with discovering the world around us. One, as he points out, was concerned with telling stories about gods and men. The other was concerned with teaching a lesson about man's duty to God. Both spoke as if they expected their audience to take the story at face value; neither ever claimed to be an eyewitness to the deeds done, and never offered any proof of their claims. Therefore, neither has anything to do with science, ancient or modern. That some scientists and mathematicians attribute the laws of the universe to God is fine. It also doesn't make them right, just believers. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-25-12, 10:39 AM	#99
Blood_splat Samurai Navy Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Beneath the waves Posts: 568 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	I like what Matt Dillahunty has to say.

03-25-12, 05:22 PM	#105
Nicolas Commander Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Uruguay Posts: 453 Downloads: 196 Uploads: 4	Blood_slpat video link. Look at the expression of the face 0:50 'what an opportunity to do damage...' when defenseless guy at the phone asks . Last edited by Nicolas; 03-25-12 at 06:22 PM.