Massive Price Drop!

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Gunnodayak

Please tell me if you honestly think I am wrong at this one.

Yes. I think there has been a fairly consistent support for indie subsims here and had DTFD been making the same sorts of marked progress as these commercial developments by Ubi, I think it'd feature just as consistently at the front of the site. "Support" and "cooperation" isn't equivalent to pushing - SH5 simply had more development to report on. Just keep in perspective what Subsim is - a marketing department it certainly ain't.

Originally Posted by CCIP

Yes.

OK, even I was not asking you in particular, but could you please tell me why do you think that?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Adriatico

I survived my last concerns in September09 coming GWX4 to an end.

After that, if Ubi doesn't care what they serve to community why should we care more ? ...more than Ubi itself.

If your partner doesn't like you any more - ask yourself what have you done to him.

So do you reckon it is a possibility that at the end all that will be left is a modding community completing games that weren't fully finished at release?

Or a different game development company entering the arena perhaps?

[Coldcall]

SH series is most played subsim in last few years because its the only one there is, and the dynamic campaign offers replayability.

There is no competition to SH so its a no brainer.

Originally Posted by Coldcall

SH series is most played subsim in last few years because its the only one there is, and the dynamic campaign offers replayability.

There is no competition to SH so its a no brainer.

There are also different projects, Shells of Fury, Danger From The Deep, but they didn't received the kind o support Ubis' products has received. With that support, they would had the chance to "grow", and it was a natural thing to support them, when we all saw that Ubis' products are being put on the market unfinished. But subsim continued to support them, in any way and any condition.
This subsim community is a force in some way, it has a lot of dedicated players, and more than this, modders! And all this force that is not being aware of its own force as an entity is being put to "work" for Ubi. I am not talking about the great things they have accomplished for us, they really did that big time, but also, we are somehow a sustaining force for Ubi, and this is manipulation, since Ubi doesn't treat us with respect. It's somehow manipulated in some way, just because the subsim community is not really aware of its force. And this is the moment Neal should act accordingly, as the leader of this community.
What is happening now is not fair, in my opinion. It's not good at all, maybe we should start to see things clearer.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

SH series is most played subsim in last few years because its the only one there is, and the dynamic campaign offers replayability.

There is no competition to SH so its a no brainer.

agreed.

[Sonarman]

Originally Posted by Gunnodayak

There are also different projects, Shells of Fury, Danger From The Deep, but they didn't received the kind o support Ubis' products has received. With that support, they would had the chance to "grow", and it was a natural thing to support them, when we all saw that Ubis' products are being put on the market unfinished. But subsim continued to support them, in any way and any condition. This is not fair, in my opinion.

True, but however incomplete you consider SH it's still a lot more complete (in terms of features) than DFTD or Shells of Fury. Of course modders will be more attracted as there is less of the very difficult "dev level" stuff to do. It's a much more advanced platform to start working from.

Originally Posted by Sonarman

True, but however incomplete you consider SH it's still a lot more complete (in terms of features) than DFTD or Shells of Fury. Of course modders will be more attracted as there is less of the very difficult "dev level" stuff to do. It's a much more advanced platform to start working from.

Yes, it is more complete, and i am still playing SH3 GWX, but mainly because of the modders work, but isn't that obvious that the things are getting worse and worse with each incarnation of SH? And isn't that obvious that the lack of respect to the customers is less with each product? Why should we support this kind of company with our wallets, with our ideas, with our hearts and minds? Maybe it's time to put a stop on this and at least try to create a fresh start. With somebody else, anyone else different than Ubi.

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Gunnodayak

There are also different projects, Shells of Fury, Danger From The Deep, but they didn't received the kind o support Ubis' products has received. With that support, they would had the chance to "grow", and it was a natural thing to support them, when we all saw that Ubis' products are being put on the market unfinished. But subsim continued to support them, in any way and any condition. This is not fair, in my opinion.

WEll I'm all for encouraging another developer to compete with the SH series as clearly there is a good market for a "good" subsim.

Problem with project like "Danger from the deep" is they they are amateur part-time efforts by one man bands. And i dont mean that in a bad way, but from a commercial perspective its not going to happen.

A subsim of the SH quality (leaving aside the problems) needs a commercial dev/gaphics team contracted for 2-3 years. Minimum team of 20-25 fulltime devs and artists.

Now i think this is perfectly feasible but one needs to organise the funding and a project manager who has experience FINNISHING complex software projects. There are just too many folks who can start well enough, but will burn out before the project is ready and then you end up with half finnished game that cost a few million, and no immediate route for the return on investment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, show me a project lead who has a track record of doing the business, and i would have no problem pitching UK VC houses for funding. This is what i do for a living for my B2B software apps clients, so i know it can be done.

However i would want to put some of my own money into the project wso i would want to be sure the team that is being assembled arent wishy washy and likely to abandon the project midway.

That is my biggest concern.

[Sonarman]

We are as they say "caught between a rock and a hard place" as SH5 proves, a lot of us have bought it however unfinished. We are in their pocket and they know it. However the general buyers are not and it is they not us who will determine the future for the series and Ubi has let them down even more than us by foolishly rushing the game out and penny pinching on manuals, their more accessible game is actually much less accessible than previous titles.

[Sonarman]

And while we are on the subject of massive price cuts my brother just phoned to let me know that GAME in the UK is now selling off Black Shark in their sale at £4.99 (bricks & mortar stores) what does that say for the future of PC simulation gaming?

Originally Posted by Coldcall

WEll I'm all for encouraging another developer to compete with the SH series as clearly there is a good market for a "good" subsim.

Problem with project like "Danger from the deep" is they they are amateur part-time efforts by one man bands. And i dont mean that in a bad way, but from a commercial perspective its not going to happen.

A subsim of the SH quality (leaving aside the problems) needs a commercial dev/gaphics team contracted for 2-3 years. Minimum team of 20-25 fulltime devs and artists.

Now i think this is perfectly feasible but one needs to organise the funding and a project manager who has experience FINNISHING complex software projects. There are just too many folks who can start well enough, but will burn out before the project is ready and then you end up with half finnished game that cost a few million, and no immediate route for the return on investment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, show me a project lead who has a track record of doing the business, and i would have no problem pitching UK VC houses for funding. This is what i do for a living for my B2B software apps clients, so i know it can be done.

However i would want to put some of my own money into the project wso i would want to be sure the team that is being assembled arent wishy washy and likely to abandon the project midway.

That is my biggest concern.

I agree with you, the things are not so simple, but I think we have no reason to continue go in the direction that some of us agree is already proven wrong. And this is the moment the community can unite and go into another direction, and even CREATE another one. it's not easy, on the contrary, it's hard, but not impossible. I am giving just a simple and at hand example, accesible for everybody, showing some interest towards Danger From The Deep forum would probably make the developers more motivated.

Originally Posted by Sonarman

And while we are on the subject of massive price cuts my brother just phoned to let me know that GAME in the UK is now selling off Black Shark in their sale at £4.99 (bricks & mortar stores) what does that say for the future of PC simulation gaming?

Sh5 is not a simulator, don't you agree? I would pay much more than 50 euros for a well made simulator. And please, don't "serve" me that line with "niche market", it's not so niche ...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Gunnodayak

Yes, it is more complete, and i am still playing SH3 GWX, but mainly because of the modders work, but isn't that obvious that the things are getting worse and worse with each incarnation of SH? And isn't that obvious that the lack of respect to the customers is less with each product? Why should we support this kind of company with our wallets, with our ideas, with our hearts and minds? Maybe it's time to put a stop on this and create a fresh start. With somebody else, anyone else different than Ubi.

I don't see anyone being forced into a position of supporting Ubi.

Ubi are the only game developer with their hat in the ring regarding WWII U-boat simulations.

I accept your description regarding the icompleteness of recent releases but I would also point out that people aren't taking it 'lying down'....there are many threads and posts on view that show the disdain at the quality of the SH5 release. There are however, many of the opposite opinion/viewpoint.

In the main it has been left to post release patches and the efforts of the modding community to make each release more enjoyable/complete/immersive (insert your own description).

What you would like to see is a culture change....a new or different beginning.

That will only come about if and when Ubi withdraw from the genre or a new games developer arrives on the scene.

I'm trying to maintain a neutral stance (difficult at times addmitedly) because of my previous involvement but am prepared to support anything or anybody who enhance the sub simming experience.

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Sonarman

And while we are on the subject of massive price cuts my brother just phoned to let me know that GAME in the UK is now selling off Black Shark in their sale at £4.99 (bricks & mortar stores) what does that say for the future of PC simulation gaming?

I dont think it says anything at all about the PC sim market. It says something about the disasterous DRM backfiring because Assasins Creed 2 is also being reduced in a big way, and that is a perfectly populist genre.