[WIP] Destabilizing the deck gun, a workaround... - Page 7

tater · 06-30-07, 07:40 AM

I honestly don't know.

CaptainCox · 06-30-07, 07:43 AM

Ok, no worries will add this and see how it goes. Cheers!

tater · 06-30-07, 10:38 AM

Just tested this again before I have to leave the house. Absolutely %#$@%$ fantastic!

You have done us an amazing service, kv29.

<S>

Regarding how this impacts ROF:
After only a few attempts to use this, I think the reload time for rounds can certainly drop towards the specifications of the gun. I still that that the spec data is not applicable to a submarine platform vs a ship though. If the ROF was listed as 8-9 for the gun (be it on a CV or a SS), then I'd drop it a ways, maybe 6 rpm tops (10 second reload). 12-15 might make more sense, but even in a wind state of 5, S-42 unmoving I was taking 10 seconds for each aimed shot, and missing on top of that. That is with the reload set to 4 seconds (half RL)!

If the boat was moving in any sea at all? Aiming dominates ROF considerations with this mod in place, IMO.

I'm fine with a stationary boat on a calm sea shooting 6+ rpm, frankly.

Now all we need to do is up the gunning capability of warships and armed merchies a hair.

I need to try this vs a DD, but I'm confident the days of gun duels with DDs are over, even with their abysmally low ROF!

CaptainCox · 06-30-07, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Just tested this again before I have to leave the house. Absolutely %#$@%$ fantastic!

You have done us an amazing service, kv29.

I can only concur 100%. Great job on this one kv29

(looks like that was the only hex value changed in the Cam.dat, at least looks like that my end

)

panthercules · 06-30-07, 12:44 PM

@kv29 - great job

When you get the 3" ready and are set to release this, please post a complete/updated change log of everything you did to the various files. For testing purposes, I just went ahead and installed your uploaded files, but for actual game play I (like Capt. Cox and many others) have some highly tweaked files to contend with and will need to make these changes manually in order to keep everything else in place.

Please hurry up and finish this - I gotta stop testing this now, before I get too used to the 2-second reload rate I set for my testing runs

tater · 06-30-07, 04:07 PM

Test:

S-42 vs Minekaze set to AI=2. Opened fire at 7400 yards speed = flank (12 knots).

74 rounds in 10 minutes (stock SH4 ROF) which is 7.4 rpm, or 8.1 seconds per round. the last 10-15 shots were with the DD dead in the water under 1000 yards, and were more than 50% of the hits, and the shots were starting to come at the stock reload rate of 4 seconds---which is twice RL.

I got maybe 20 hits (lost count on a couple with DD muzzle flashes at same time).

My hit rate was grossly lower than in stock SH4.

So dumping any shots that came closer than 8 seconds apart (since that was the max ROF of the weapon bolted to a test stand) it was maybe 55 rounds in 9 minutes, which is a ROF of 6.1.

The DD didn't even return fire til I was inside 3-4000 yards. "Competant" AI isn't competant.

Will retry at veteran and see how it goes (I am running an improved visual sensor mod that allows them to spot my scope, too, so they should shoot better).

tater · 06-30-07, 04:25 PM

7 minutes 48 rounds AI set to vet. 6.85 rpm for about 20 hits. I opened fire 1000 yards closer, but the lower number of rounds was because the DD turned into me quickly and opened fire. The range was closing fast so prett soon it was a point-blank slugfest.

This demonstrates how abysmal the AI really is at stock settings. Say what you will about RL IJN ASW cpability, but they had EXCELLENT crews overall, and there is no excuse for me to sink a DD, any DD, in such a manner.

As soon as I got within 1000 yards, the deck crew on my sub should have been slaughtered by 25mm AA fire. We need to fix that, too.

None the less, I find my ROF experiments interesting. If it was set to 8 RPM it would be easier to test. What I did was to watch the reload bar, then wait 3-4 seconds after it to fire. If the roll was at the wrong place, I'd have to wait a couple seconds for level.

For those who have yet to test this mod, gunnery is like trying to use the stadimeter on the TBT when there is some chop.

Palidian · 07-01-07, 07:13 AM

Got a chance to try this mod, it does not appear to work when zomed all the way out. I hope it can be made to work for the AA gun as well. Otherwise nice job.

Palidian · 07-01-07, 07:17 AM

I agree the AI is pretty poor. However, how vulnerable is a sub to gun fire at 500 yards? On the surface the pressure hull is still below the water line, and the only thing exposed is the deck and the conning tower. Assuming they could depress the guns low enough to fire, any hit that would hit the pressure hull would skip across the water, and hit the deck/conning tower. While annoying, not enough to sink the sub.

AA gun fire is a different story however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

7 minutes 48 rounds AI set to vet. 6.85 rpm for about 20 hits. I opened fire 1000 yards closer, but the lower number of rounds was because the DD turned into me quickly and opened fire. The range was closing fast so prett soon it was a point-blank slugfest.

This demonstrates how abysmal the AI really is at stock settings. Say what you will about RL IJN ASW cpability, but they had EXCELLENT crews overall, and there is no excuse for me to sink a DD, any DD, in such a manner.

As soon as I got within 1000 yards, the deck crew on my sub should have been slaughtered by 25mm AA fire. We need to fix that, too.

None the less, I find my ROF experiments interesting. If it was set to 8 RPM it would be easier to test. What I did was to watch the reload bar, then wait 3-4 seconds after it to fire. If the roll was at the wrong place, I'd have to wait a couple seconds for level.

For those who have yet to test this mod, gunnery is like trying to use the stadimeter on the TBT when there is some chop.

Bando · 07-01-07, 07:31 AM

Hello KV29.

Several mods affect these files, therefore I'll insert them manually by *timetravellers* minitweaker. From what I've seen, these are the differences between the settings in the gun tweak files compared with Beery's RFB, can you confirm?

Guntype ------3.50 ----------4.50 ----------5.25
Traverse speed 5 / 0.1 --------35 / 25 --------35 / 25 (RFB / Dest.gun)

Elevation speed 25 / 25 -------5 / 0.1 --------10 / 5

Reg.

EDIT
Never mind, just tweaked all the files included, added the line in cameras.dat file, and changed the reload times to 10 sec.
If Tater is right than I should be able to fire 2/3 rounds a minute. Will test.

Bando

07-01-07, 10:44 AM

O.k. I have tried it: it is really hard now. I like it!!!

Note that your gunners are also missing a lot so you will have to man the guns yourself.

07-01-07, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

None the less, I find my ROF experiments interesting. If it was set to 8 RPM it would be easier to test. What I did was to watch the reload bar, then wait 3-4 seconds after it to fire. If the roll was at the wrong place, I'd have to wait a couple seconds for level.

And that, I think, demostrated theoretical ROF against real ROF. In real gunfight, you had to aim for some time even if your gun was reloaded... like in this mod.

kv29 · 07-02-07, 08:33 AM

Im glad you like it

The problem with the 3" persist. It seems that the min & max gun elevation is somehow related to the cameras. My goal wat to decrease a bit each gun min elevation parameter so we could use the stock deck gun zoomed sights. As soon as I modified the 4" min elevation, the camera automatically anchored to the gun elevation, so when you rise the gun the zoomed cam goes along (the same problem that happens with the 3") AND also screws the firing range (the game calculates ranges from the stock elevation value)

Yes, I tried put the same 4" values to the 3", not only the problem is still there but the gun is pointing too low with them.

Btw, something you may or may not know, the deckgun zoomed sight IS edited and it should be used instead the stock overlay until we find a more appropiate fix.

So for now, its 4" or nothing. Im still trying to crack this issue, and would like to disable the external crosshair also. Any clues?

07-02-07, 11:41 AM

I guess, as temp. solution, we could REMOVE crosshair when unzoomed; it would be like watching with your eyes to move the gun and then you would look through crosshair and aim. :hmm:

P.S. Why did you create a new "Deck gun 4.dds" file?

kv29 · 07-02-07, 11:49 AM

Because the stock sight was pointing a little above the horizon, which is not good. I had to edit the crosshair and lower it to the right level, consider it as a temp fix.

I will post a new REL thread soon, we will continue the discussion there.

06-30-07, 07:43 AM	#92
CaptainCox Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: A Swede in Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,897 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Ok, no worries will add this and see how it goes. Cheers! __________________ DOWNLOAD MY MODS HERE

06-30-07, 12:44 PM	#95
panthercules The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,336 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	@kv29 - great job When you get the 3" ready and are set to release this, please post a complete/updated change log of everything you did to the various files. For testing purposes, I just went ahead and installed your uploaded files, but for actual game play I (like Capt. Cox and many others) have some highly tweaked files to contend with and will need to make these changes manually in order to keep everything else in place. Please hurry up and finish this - I gotta stop testing this now, before I get too used to the 2-second reload rate I set for my testing runs __________________

07-01-07, 07:31 AM	#100
Bando Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Where you don't see me Posts: 607 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Hello KV29. Several mods affect these files, therefore I'll insert them manually by timetravellers minitweaker. From what I've seen, these are the differences between the settings in the gun tweak files compared with Beery's RFB, can you confirm? Guntype ------3.50 ----------4.50 ----------5.25 Traverse speed 5 / 0.1 --------35 / 25 --------35 / 25 (RFB / Dest.gun) Elevation speed 25 / 25 -------5 / 0.1 --------10 / 5 Reg. EDIT Never mind, just tweaked all the files included, added the line in cameras.dat file, and changed the reload times to 10 sec. If Tater is right than I should be able to fire 2/3 rounds a minute. Will test. Bando Last edited by Bando; 07-01-07 at 12:53 PM.

06-30-07, 07:40 AM	#91
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I honestly don't know.

06-30-07, 10:38 AM	#93
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Just tested this again before I have to leave the house. Absolutely %#$@%$ fantastic! You have done us an amazing service, kv29. <S> Regarding how this impacts ROF: After only a few attempts to use this, I think the reload time for rounds can certainly drop towards the specifications of the gun. I still that that the spec data is not applicable to a submarine platform vs a ship though. If the ROF was listed as 8-9 for the gun (be it on a CV or a SS), then I'd drop it a ways, maybe 6 rpm tops (10 second reload). 12-15 might make more sense, but even in a wind state of 5, S-42 unmoving I was taking 10 seconds for each aimed shot, and missing on top of that. That is with the reload set to 4 seconds (half RL)! If the boat was moving in any sea at all? Aiming dominates ROF considerations with this mod in place, IMO. I'm fine with a stationary boat on a calm sea shooting 6+ rpm, frankly. Now all we need to do is up the gunning capability of warships and armed merchies a hair. I need to try this vs a DD, but I'm confident the days of gun duels with DDs are over, even with their abysmally low ROF!

06-30-07, 04:07 PM	#96
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Test: S-42 vs Minekaze set to AI=2. Opened fire at 7400 yards speed = flank (12 knots). 74 rounds in 10 minutes (stock SH4 ROF) which is 7.4 rpm, or 8.1 seconds per round. the last 10-15 shots were with the DD dead in the water under 1000 yards, and were more than 50% of the hits, and the shots were starting to come at the stock reload rate of 4 seconds---which is twice RL. I got maybe 20 hits (lost count on a couple with DD muzzle flashes at same time). My hit rate was grossly lower than in stock SH4. So dumping any shots that came closer than 8 seconds apart (since that was the max ROF of the weapon bolted to a test stand) it was maybe 55 rounds in 9 minutes, which is a ROF of 6.1. The DD didn't even return fire til I was inside 3-4000 yards. "Competant" AI isn't competant. Will retry at veteran and see how it goes (I am running an improved visual sensor mod that allows them to spot my scope, too, so they should shoot better).

06-30-07, 04:25 PM	#97
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	7 minutes 48 rounds AI set to vet. 6.85 rpm for about 20 hits. I opened fire 1000 yards closer, but the lower number of rounds was because the DD turned into me quickly and opened fire. The range was closing fast so prett soon it was a point-blank slugfest. This demonstrates how abysmal the AI really is at stock settings. Say what you will about RL IJN ASW cpability, but they had EXCELLENT crews overall, and there is no excuse for me to sink a DD, any DD, in such a manner. As soon as I got within 1000 yards, the deck crew on my sub should have been slaughtered by 25mm AA fire. We need to fix that, too. None the less, I find my ROF experiments interesting. If it was set to 8 RPM it would be easier to test. What I did was to watch the reload bar, then wait 3-4 seconds after it to fire. If the roll was at the wrong place, I'd have to wait a couple seconds for level. For those who have yet to test this mod, gunnery is like trying to use the stadimeter on the TBT when there is some chop.

07-01-07, 07:13 AM	#98
Palidian Gunner Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 98 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Got a chance to try this mod, it does not appear to work when zomed all the way out. I hope it can be made to work for the AA gun as well. Otherwise nice job.

07-01-07, 10:44 AM	#101
Julius Caesar Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	O.k. I have tried it: it is really hard now. I like it!!! Note that your gunners are also missing a lot so you will have to man the guns yourself.

07-02-07, 08:33 AM	#103
kv29 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 342 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Im glad you like it The problem with the 3" persist. It seems that the min & max gun elevation is somehow related to the cameras. My goal wat to decrease a bit each gun min elevation parameter so we could use the stock deck gun zoomed sights. As soon as I modified the 4" min elevation, the camera automatically anchored to the gun elevation, so when you rise the gun the zoomed cam goes along (the same problem that happens with the 3") AND also screws the firing range (the game calculates ranges from the stock elevation value) Yes, I tried put the same 4" values to the 3", not only the problem is still there but the gun is pointing too low with them. Btw, something you may or may not know, the deckgun zoomed sight IS edited and it should be used instead the stock overlay until we find a more appropiate fix. So for now, its 4" or nothing. Im still trying to crack this issue, and would like to disable the external crosshair also. Any clues?

07-02-07, 11:41 AM	#104
Julius Caesar Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I guess, as temp. solution, we could REMOVE crosshair when unzoomed; it would be like watching with your eyes to move the gun and then you would look through crosshair and aim. :hmm: P.S. Why did you create a new "Deck gun 4.dds" file?

07-02-07, 11:49 AM	#105
kv29 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 342 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Because the stock sight was pointing a little above the horizon, which is not good. I had to edit the crosshair and lower it to the right level, consider it as a temp fix. I will post a new REL thread soon, we will continue the discussion there.