The Ashes

[STEED]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

England will never surrender the ashes to Australia!

Pay me £1 Million Pounds and there yours.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by horsa

What arrant nonsense.

The English team are coming a bad second best to Australia this time round but this shouldn’t be a smug excuse to write off England’s performance in 2005. England are not going to apologise for “home crowd and conditions” anymore than Australia should for their current home advantage. And where does this myth of “bad luck” come from ? Was it “bad luck” that Ponting blundered with the toss at Edgbaston, or “bad luck” that he chose to take a suicidal single at Trent Bridge, or I suppose it was “bad luck” that Warne spilled Pietersen on that final morning of the Oval test.. No my friend , all of that was bad play. If we’re into that sort of approach then I’m sure I could claim that England’s 7 dropped catches at Lords were “bad luck”. The only genuine “bad luck” was Glen McGraw stepping on a cricket ball immediately before the second test and maybe arguably that England won 3 tosses to Australia’s 2, but those shouldn’t be used as a panacea excuse for why Australia lost the Ashes. The fact is the England team played better. Not by a country mile , but enough to beat Australia on that occasion. With four effective in-form seam bowlers the English attack was able to keep up the pressure all the time, in a way Australia hadn’t experienced in a long while. And in one critical department they were clearly superior – the captain’s performance. The England team had become a tight knit unit over the previous 18 months with the added momentum of a winning habit. All the elements had come together at just the right time, as it does with all winning teams including Australia who have maintained their momentum for over a decade.

That winning English team was already falling apart even as the final 2005 Oval test was playing. Simon Jones was absent through injury so the relentless pressure of four effective bowlers was removed. He has never returned. Compound that with the loss Michael Vaughan early in the winter campaign, the various absences of Trescothick, Harmison, Flintoff and Giles (to name a few) and it should be no surprise that rhythm and form have suffered. England have stuttered and started ever since. The records speak for themselves. Australia have won 11 out of their 12 succeeding tests and England have won 4 out of 12 ( I’ll exclude the 2006 Oval fiasco from the statistics) .

This is not the same England team, and neither is it the same Australian team, so let’s have none of this nonsense that the current series is some sort of rerun and only luck and home advantage were the reasons for England’s Ashes victory in 2005.

Horsa, It would appear that you have miscronstrued the last sentence in my post. My objective was not to make excuses for Australia's defeat in 2005 by blaming it on luck, conditions and crowd. My intent was to counterpoint the conditions under which the English are performing under this year as compared to last year. I could also have said that they are not the same team and that this years side is not performing as well as the 2005 side.

The main point of my post was that England this year do not appear to be as pschologically well prepared for the task as the Australians. If this is nonsense then Australia should have lost the first two tests and should lose the next 3.

I don't believe this to be so.

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by STEED

Pay me £1 Million Pounds and there yours.

How about $1.25 in pacific pesos and a case of VB?:hmm:

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

How about $1.25 in pacific pesos and a case of VB?:hmm:

Sounds like a good deal of an old clay urn full of burnt bails to me!

[STEED]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

How about $1.25 in pacific pesos and a case of VB?:hmm:

Hey I'm not cheap you know. :p

[Konovalov]

More misery for team England in Perth today.

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ausve...ry/271729.html

The England XI made 8 for 259 and in reply the Cricket Australia Chairman's XI won with 3 for 260. The Chairman's XI got the runs in only 40.1 overs having hammered the England bowlers to all parts.

At least Panesar picked up a couple of wickets but apparently he looked a little rusty which doesn't come as much of a suprise considering Fletcher has turned him into a glorified drinks boy for the first two Tests. Sajid Mahmood bowled well and is threatening Anderson for a place in the Perth test. So another loss but some small positive signs for England.

[TarJak]

Damien Marten retired this morning as well. He was not inluded in the squad for the Perth test and he said that he no longer has the passion for the game needed to play at the top level.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/a...081133434.html

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by TarJak

Damien Marten retired this morning as well. He was not inluded in the squad for the Perth test and he said that he no longer has the passion for the game needed to play at the top level.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/a...081133434.html

Yep. Credit to him for making the call he did. Some guys would just hang around like a bad smell even though they knew that they weren't 100% commited any more.

This is good news for Australia in the long term. Marto was one of 4 top 6 bastmen in their mid 30's. We need to start bringing new players into the team as the last thing we need is all our senior players going at once. I would say that Symo will come into the team for this match and that Watson if fit will take back the place for the Boxing day Test.

[TarJak]

I agree that it was time for him to go.

I saw something interesting on the Glasshouse (a local comedy show in Australia on ABC http://www.abc.net.au/glasshouse/ ), a couple of weeks ago, Merv Hughes was on the show and they were talking about sports people retiring. Merve said he knew the exact moment when it was time to retire. Bob Simpson (a selector at the time), came up and tapped him on the shoulder and told him it was time to retire!

[Konovalov]

Is that program still running on ABC? Is the comedian Dave Hughes still on it? I wish the ABC would bring back some great comedy like the Late Show from the early 90's with Micky Molloy, Rob Sitch, and co. Those were the days.

[diver]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

Is that program still running on ABC? Is the comedian Dave Hughes still on it? I wish the ABC would bring back some great comedy like the Late Show from the early 90's with Micky Molloy, Rob Sitch, and co. Those were the days.

No.

It got killed a few weeks ago.

About bloody time to.

If they want to make left-wing trash with thier own money thats one thing, but not on my dime

[horsa]

My objective was not to make excuses for Australia's defeat in 2005 by blaming it on luck, conditions and crowd.

I must accept this is what you meant because that is what you tell me, but I have to say it doesn’t read that way. At the moment, there’s not much to feel pleased about, if you’re a supporter of English Cricket, and you need to understand that any hint that 2005 “was just a bit of luck” smacks a bit of cheap unnecessary vindictiveness.

I hope you can see that the events of Adelaide will have cut really deep. It’s a bit like a boxing match gone wrong where the champion has landed a knock out blow only to discover he has inadvertently killed his opponent in the process as well. Believe me, this is far worse than Headingley ‘81. I dread to think what this will have done to the psyche of the English game, the rest of this series, and maybe even the Ashes contest itself. All this talk of “bouncing back” and “ we must be positive” is only paper thin. Flintoff’s frozen demeanor at the press conference suggests a deeply damaged team.

Australia’s professionalism and Warne’s brilliance apart, the England team knows it cocked up big time – and this was supposed to be a team with mental toughness. One English media commentator believes they simply choked. They have nowhere to go for excuses. Even most of the Australian media have been sheepish about this, sensing the sheer cringing embarrassment of it all.

And then there’s Fletcher. He’s done wonders for the English game over the last eight years , but now he’s somehow contriving to wipe it all out.
There’s been a lot of talk about his wrong headed selection, and it’s difficult not to agree with it. Unfortunately, it’s creating the myth that the hapless Panesar is going to be a match winning saviour. He’s a clever bowler, sadly ignored by Fletcher, but he’s no Warne .I only hope he isn’t heading for an undeserved fall, crushed by the massive expectation that he can somehow reverse the series. We can dream of course …… hmmm “Panesar’s Series” . But let’s be realists. The insidious sadist that wrote the script for this series would take perverse pleasure in giving him a return of something like 0 for 130 at Perth ……… the same script writer, I might add, who decided that Giles was the only fielder placed to take Ponting’s catch on day three.

So you see ,when things go pear shaped, or as in this case, gigantic pumpkin shaped , we turn to the Ashes 2005. It’s our opium. It's going to have to last us a long time.

[horsa]

More misery for team England in Perth today.

God, it's getting so bad even the Aussi's are feeling sorry for us

Please, guys , promise you won't bowl underarm to us in the Third Test.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by horsa

I must accept this is what you meant because that is what you tell me, but I have to say it doesn’t read that way. At the moment, there’s not much to feel pleased about, if you’re a supporter of English Cricket, and you need to understand that any hint that 2005 “was just a bit of luck” smacks a bit of cheap unnecessary vindictiveness.

I hope you can see that the events of Adelaide will have cut really deep. It’s a bit like a boxing match gone wrong where the champion has landed a knock out blow only to discover he has inadvertently killed his opponent in the process as well. Believe me, this is far worse than Headingley ‘81. I dread to think what this will have done to the psyche of the English game, the rest of this series, and maybe even the Ashes contest itself. All this talk of “bouncing back” and “ we must be positive” is only paper thin. Flintoff’s frozen demeanor at the press conference suggests a deeply damaged team.

Australia’s professionalism and Warne’s brilliance apart, the England team knows it cocked up big time – and this was supposed to be a team with mental toughness. One English media commentator believes they simply choked. They have nowhere to go for excuses. Even most of the Australian media have been sheepish about this, sensing the sheer cringing embarrassment of it all.

And then there’s Fletcher. He’s done wonders for the English game over the last eight years , but now he’s somehow contriving to wipe it all out.
There’s been a lot of talk about his wrong headed selection, and it’s difficult not to agree with it. Unfortunately, it’s creating the myth that the hapless Panesar is going to be a match winning saviour. He’s a clever bowler, sadly ignored by Fletcher, but he’s no Warne .I only hope he isn’t heading for an undeserved fall, crushed by the massive expectation that he can somehow reverse the series. We can dream of course …… hmmm “Panesar’s Series” . But let’s be realists. The insidious sadist that wrote the script for this series would take perverse pleasure in giving him a return of something like 0 for 130 at Perth ……… the same script writer, I might add, who decided that Giles was the only fielder placed to take Ponting’s catch on day three.

So you see ,when things go pear shaped, or as in this case, gigantic pumpkin shaped , we turn to the Ashes 2005. It’s our opium. It's going to have to last us a long time.

Horsa, Thanks for the response. I meant no vindictiveness and remember that whilst 2005 is your opium it is also a deep cut for a team and group of supporters who were very used to being on top in this game.

I think that the 2005 ashes result is one of the reasons why the Australian team has got it's act together this year. They do not want to be on the losing side at home and will walk slowly over broken glass in bear feet to avoid that outcome.

Being married to a pom gives me a little objectivity (not a lot), and whilst I may not have chosen my words as carefully as I should my intent is as was stated.

[horsa]

Damien Marten retired this morning as well. He was not inluded in the squad for the Perth test and he said that he no longer has the passion for the game needed to play at the top level.

Last night I had a dream.

Flintoff .
“You know guys, I’ve been thinking. Since I’ve been captain I’ve not been the player I was. It’s just too much for one person. Bowling my heart out, batting like I’m supposed to be Botham at no.6, suspect ankle , carrying the Boys Own hero expectation thing, and so on . What I’m going to do is hand over to Andrew Strauss. He’s a level headed sort of guy, good cricketing brain, sort of in the Michael Vaughan mould, and doesn’t have any unnecessary baggage to carry.”

Gerait Jones
“ Hey Freddie. Great idea. Just what we’d all been saying the other day in the bar while you were at the press conference saying nothing. Now you mention it , I guess my batting’s a bit of a let down as well. Old Readie here is a good solid scorer and is just as capable as me with the gloves . How’s about we swop over ? “

Giles
“ You're right there, Jonesie old son. That’s got me thinking too. I know I’ve done valuable if unspectacular service to the team over the years and been a great team guy, but since my hip problem it’s just not been the same. Twelve months without any real cricket is not the best preparation for a test match comeback. I know Dunc will be disappointed, and he’s great with this loyalty thing, but lets face it, Monty here is frankly a better bowler than me. Let him take my place. ”

Harmison
“ Hmmmmm . Good point there Gilo. Well, I know I’ve got years of bowling in me still, but I think I could do with a rest. The rhythm’s just not there. Slowly falling down the ratings and getting marmalised by the best team in the world is not doing my confidence any good. I know second slip will miss their fielding practice without me bowling spectacular wides but Sajid, here, is raring to go. He couldn’t do a worse job than me so how about it, mate ?

Anderson
“ Well, Harmie, where does that leave me ? If I carry on playing with some real bowlers around me it might get noticed that I hardly ever take a wicket. Maybe I’m not really a test class bowler. I guess I ought to stand aside too. Liam’s not brilliant but he’s young, keen and learning fast, and at least he takes a wicket or two

Pietersen
“ Bang on there , mates. Maybe me and Collie won’t feel like we’re wasting our time carrying the team by ourselves. And to show my appreciation of you fellas I’ll promise to stop trying to be so bleedin clever and cut out the sweep stroke.

( nods and smiles all round)


Then I woke up and heard Fletcher on the radio saying it was all the batsmen’s fault, he doesn’t make all the decisions by himself anyway, and he sees no point in changing. After all that would only prove he was wrong in the first place.