Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by August

What should happen to a government that ordered or tolerated mass sniper attacks on protesters?

whoever shot first that's a debate that can be as long as this one:


I do not believe it's some plot by some fascist faction or some utter nonesense like that started to shoot to make the other side looks bad.

The protest was going on for some time, tension rises and you just need a couple of nutjobs that light the fire followed by chaos. You can bet your ass that one side of the media takes advantage of it and they could care less figuring out who started first as long it's enough drama for your news bulletin which is easy with the unarmed protesters caught in between.

Originally Posted by Oberon

I have said this time and again to people who have wistfully called for a revolution in their own country, thinking that it will make all the bad things go away.

You'd expect people to learn something from History

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by TarJak

But that's the GT way isn't it?

Best it stays in GT and doesn't spill into other forum areas.

[Oberon]

Heavy fighting leaves dozens dead and more wounded in Odessa, Slovyansk and Kramatorsk.

Alledged footage from Kramatorsk:

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Heavy fighting leaves dozens dead and more wounded in Odessa, Slovyansk and Kramatorsk.

Alledged footage from Kramatorsk:

If it is then it's of a bunch of guys shooting up into the air. I've been to parties that looked like that in the dark.

[Skybird]

Not just in quantity but also in"quality" things have dramatically worsened. In Odessa pro-Russian activists were locked in buildings and burnt to death, with the governor of the province hailing it as a "neutralization or terrorism".

Torturing people to death like this and celebrating it, is not just fighting or "conflict" anymore. Bitter, pitch-black hate now takes over. Stories like this do not get forgotten or forgiven easily.

What we see now is the "Yugoslavization" of the conflict, and it will become more cruel and barbaric now.

If that is to be avoided, then the only solution seems to be now to not only accept but to encourage Moscow to take control of the complete Ukraine. The sooner, the better.

After yesterday's gruesome events I started to think if maybe the Ukraine should not just get split, because then the West would be expected to give support to a Western half of the "country" with such corrupted leadership and organised crime that any alliance with that scum would put the West to shame. I start to think now that maybe the best and most logical solution would be if Moscow indeed just picks up the whole Ukraine and makes it part of the Russian federation again. In the end, Kiew itself is a pillar of historic Russian identity-forming, any splitting of th euikraine sound slike a temporary improvisation anyway. The attempt by the West and especially the US to isolate and punish Moscow, is stupid, dilettantish, bigot and morally presumptuous . Not one European nickle and not one American dime is worth to be sunk into the Ukrainian bottomless pit. Let the Russians do it. They want it much more than we ever should want it anyway - so let them shoulder the bills. thta way we can even "harm" them without them being able to retaliate.

Worth to be known: US banks have given Russia credits worth around 32 or 34 billion, or 35. But European banks, especially German, French and Austrian banks, have given them 280 billion in credits. If Moscow decides to retaliate for sanctions by running all gas and oil deals not in dollar anymore and banning dollar-based trading completely, also no longer honouring its credit obligations but keeping the money as compensation, the losses and damages to Europe would be around ten times as big as for America. Next consider that Eurpoe does much more trade volume with Russia, than America does (especially Europe economic powerhouse Germany), and that finally Europe relies signfiicantly on Russian gas - somethinggn that cannot be changed within just a couple of years, you can reduce the German share from one third to one quarter within 6-8 years - say the most optimistic projections, for other European nations it would be much less reductions possible.

Then you know why it is so easy for Washington to demand to play tough game with Moscow - it has little at risk. That Washington is not shy to line up with criminal regimes if it serves its geopolitical strategies, is nothing new. But the shockwaves from any Russian retaliation would not need to be absorbed by America - but Europe. Something that McCain comfortably forgot to mention in his recent attack against Germany.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Not just in quantity but also in"quality" things have dramatically worsened. In Odessa pro-Russian activists were locked

They are 'terrorists'.
and the rest: tl;dr.

tit for tat, as they say:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...d-kiev-bulatov
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25977113
more:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...v-9275542.html

and a few more recent cases to which I can't find a link in English.

Didn't see skybird posting about the guys above - is he biased and the mods let him do his usual propaganda here?

[Jimbuna]

Much more of this and Putin will probably act and some might say justifiably so.

[CCIP]

Having 0 support for Putin over Crimea etc., I still have to say that what's being down by the current Ukrainian government is pretty terrible. By all reports I've seen, what's going on in places like Slavyansk and Kramatorsk right now cannot be called an anti-terrorist operation, but rather it bears all the marks of a punitive expedition. No plans have been given to regular civilians on how to get out of fighting or what to do in this situation, and by accounts that I've seen, weapons being used (like unguided rockets fired from helicopters) are not exactly precision munitions that would minimize risk to civilians. Rather, it appears to me that the Ukrainian government is treating everyone as a potential separatist collaborator and trying to scare them into submission. That is not a legitimate tactic and, by the looks of it, is far worse than what Yanukovich had been accused of.

And then there is Odessa which is basically uncontrolled and nearly random chaos that spilled out without so much as proper interference by authorities.


In my eyes, the current Ukrainian interim government has lost all legitimacy int he last 48 hours or so. What they're doing is not compatible with international rule of law and I really want the West to condemn what they're doing. Sadly, they seem to be getting a pat on the back instead. Mind you, I don't view that as giving legitimacy to separatists, let alone Mr. Putin & co., but it is all very troubling and unworthy of anything but a strong rebuke.

Not just in quantity but also in"quality" things have dramatically worsened. In Odessa pro-Russian activists were locked in buildings and burnt to death, with the governor of the province hailing it as a "neutralization or terrorism".

Conflict should be conducted without rules, without niceties and with as much barbarity as is required to achieve the desired result.
Those are your views, so it looks like your complaints are hypocrisy.

Torturing people to death like this and celebrating it, is not just fighting or "conflict" anymore. Bitter, pitch-black hate now takes over. Stories like this do not get forgotten or forgiven easily.

Good point, well it would be a good point if you changed the words "anymore" and "now".
You seem to be creating history from a blank sheet instead of actual history.

If that is to be avoided, then the only solution seems to be now to not only accept but to encourage Moscow to take control of the complete Ukraine. The sooner, the better.

History proves that Moscow is no different, in fact history proves that Moscow is very nasty and very brutal in matters such as this, by backing one bunch of idiots over the other bunch of idiots you are just showing you have little balance, in fact by backing a bunch of idiots with a long track record of exactly what you claim you want to avoid you are showing that you have no balance at all and that your views are warped beyond any semblance of reality or hint of rational thought.
Your words show you to be, as well as a hypocrite, either a very naïve person or a completely unthinking person.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Much more of this and Putin will probably act and some might say justifiably so.

Maybe he will intervene for a reason not so much expected: because maybe he is loosing influence on the pro-Russian militias.

[Onkel Neal]

Man, Putin is neatly destroying a country, piece by piece. Hitler would be so proud.

[CCIP]

Why do you think it's Putin and not the country destroying itself?
If you look at the actual events and history of the Ukraine, this isn't exactly something that came out of nowhere.

[Catfish]

I am not sure at all what Putin is currently doing. What happens in Odessa is unclear, and now the provisional government in Kiew has begun to shoot at own citizens.

The recent media reports in Germany about Russia are the purest soviet agitation and propaganda by style, only this time it comes from the western media, and it is so ridiculously obvious.
The media anchorman of Germany's biggest TV company Mr Klaus Kleber is a member of the "Atlantik-Bruecke" or atlantic bridge; its head is the notorious Friedrich Merz, who is "a controversial person" to say at least, in Germany (from bribery and corruption scandals to blackmail).
You will seldom hear anything anti western (or pro russian likewise), from this group.
Mr Kleber from the ZDF already had to excuse himself about several 'glitches' as he called it, which were either "one-mindedly" researched, or proven plain wrong.

The EU-Ukraine association pact document is all nice and good economically, but some of its content is directed at the heart of the Ukraine, it promises in article 2 chapter 7 close military collaboration, or, for people who do not read between the lines, a military connection with the NATO. Whoever wrote this paper must have had the tearing apart of the Ukraine in mind, if he was not completely dumb (which is perfectly possible of course, when i see our politicians).

The eastern part of the Ukraine would never sign that, the western part only would because of the current provisional government, who's likewise current provisional president is considered to be a puppet of the West. Mr. Brennan, the head of the CIA, went to Kiew a few days ago. You can only imagine what it was about and what happens there, Russia does not have to actively do anything.

But if the Ukraine "goes west", the new borders of the NATO are 350 kilometers apart from Stalingrad, while an "anti Iran missile shield" is planned to be erected by the NATO in .. Poland. Maybe there is a secret plan to divert all iranian rockets over russian territory, before they change course for the west, because if not the position of this shield is completely ridiculous.
Has anyone thought about what Russia thinks about this.


If there can be any doubt of what the Ukraine thinks about itself or what it means for the people living there, you should google for Byzanz, the commitment to the third Rome (Kiew), and especially what "Rus" and Kiew means for Russia, straight back to the viking settlements back then.


P.S.:
A few german links:


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke
https://morbusignorantia.wordpress.c...lantik-brucke/


And last not least Ken Jebsen:

(Regarding Ken Jebsen there is a real movement of the established media to discredit him, they also do not shy away of calling him an anti-semite, while the real reason is of course a bit different. B.t.w. Jebsen is neither a Nazi nor anything politically "right", and has never said or published such crap. He is mostly neutral and shoots at all, while denying to take a side, politically. No wonder he is under attack.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

while an "anti Iran missile shield" is planned to be erected by the NATO in .. Poland.

The giant Russian relations wrecking anti-missile plan was dropped when Obama took office. It's been replaced with SM-3 launchers, capable of shooting down short range ballistic missiles, not ICBMs.

In September 2009, President Obama announced plans to scrap plans for missile defense sites in East Europe, in favor of missile defense systems located on US Navy warships.[25] On 18 September 2009, Russian Prime Minister Putin welcomed Obama's plans for missile defense which may include stationing American Aegis armed warships in the Black Sea.[26][27] This deployment began to occur that same month, with the deployment of Aegis-equipped warships with the RIM-161 SM-3 missile system, which complements the Patriot systems already deployed by American units

[Catfish]

Ah, diversion and desinformation.

This is a technical question. The reason they are being placed there, are the defense against iranian rockets.

Does that make sense for you.