Strike on North Korea - Page 63

Skybird · 12-12-17, 07:31 AM

So he volunteered, but then wanted to cherry-pick his assignments and wars. That is deserting, plain and simple.

With a draft in place one could always argue that while the army does and cannot make a difference between men joining voluntarily and men who get "kidnapped" and forced against their will to serve, avoiding service and fleeing from the official kidnapping is no deserting, but morally perfectly legitimate self-defence. Lets face it, a draft system is injust and morally not defendable.

But he volunteered. All the above was thus not valid for him.

ikalugin · 12-12-17, 07:56 AM

I think draft is defendable if we assume that people have the freedom to vote against it at the ballot box or by leaving the country.

Skybird · 12-12-17, 10:40 AM

And a crime done by a cirminal is legal because viticms have the freedom to evade, to flee, to try to escape?

You forget one thing here, I call it the criterion of first aggression, or "Verursacherprinzip". The one aggresisvbely imposing the consequences of his deeds on others is responsible, not the victims of these consequences. You break it - you mend it. The othe rmust not work around your breaking act - YOU have to either not breaking it, or if oyu did, YOU have to mend it.

It is not morally okay to demand somebody to join the military if he doe snot want. However, if you rtefuse to do your share in case the society you live in gets attacked, you have no longer any claim towards that society. If you do not give, you lose rights to take. Its not just rights, but also duties (moral imperatives, in this case). If you refuse help to defend of what you live, you lose the right that this context/system/society must care about your well-being. Give and take, take and give.

The origin of the ancient Greek word we know as "citizen", refers to small groups of armed men. Warrior, soldiers, in other words. Citizens are warriors. One of the reasons why females were no citizens in ancient Greece, since females were not allowed to carry arms. Smae for slaves, servants, subordinates, unfree, non-welathy people - none of them was a citizen. In fact the overwhelming part of the population in ancient Greek cities were not considered to be citizens with citizen rights. Only 1-3 in twenty were "citizens". - In modern time, only fascism has reminded of this implication, and then abused it, of course. Because, on the other hand and oppposite to modenr Italy and the Duce, the city state of Sparta, often accused to have been the first fascist state there was (an idiotic claim), Being a warrior not necessarily makes you hungry for war and aggression, it only means you are ready for what war brings, if need arises. When Alexander called the Greek to gather around him for his cause to conqueer the known world, the Spartans were the only ones who refused to follow, and stayed home. And while being met with scorn and mockery, they nevertheless came to the rescue of Greek homelands when foreign aggressors threatened the Greek.

Citizens are warriors/soldiers.

And from here you could indeed argue that as a citizen you have a duty to serve. Seems I just managed to bite my own tail. LOL

I just have a big problem to let just miserable politicians decide whether I have to fight and shoot at other people and try to kill them and risk my life. I leave this decision to nobody else than to myself, and my conscience. And not before I decide for myself that here ius a valdi need or a valid reason to fight, I accept to then take cokmands by some military officers and generals that tell me to shgoot these guys and to bomb those houses. But the base decision that coems first - is it worth the fight for my conscience criteria - is first, and that oen is mine, and mine alone. I do not allow politicians - or anyone else - to order me on that decision already, I am not their slave-by-birth.

Catfish · 12-12-17, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

So he volunteered, but then wanted to cherry-pick his assignments and wars. That is deserting, plain and simple.

With a draft in place one could always argue that while the army does and cannot make a difference between men joining voluntarily and men who get "kidnapped" and forced against their will to serve, avoiding service and fleeing from the official kidnapping is no deserting, but morally perfectly legitimate self-defence. Lets face it, a draft system is injust and morally not defendable.

But he volunteered. All the above was thus not valid for him.

The US had 'draft' in all major conflicts, also on the Korean and Vietnam war.
"avoiding service and fleeing from the official kidnapping is no deserting, but morally perfectly legitimate self-defence"
This reminds me of someone

On the other hand when you deserted the Wehrmacht back then you would be a hero. Or maybe not.

mapuc · 12-12-17, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...fears-nuclear/

Are the Chinese better informed than the western media?

I guess it also could mean China are planning to take on their little brother by them self then letting some outside doing it.

Markus

Delgard · 12-12-17, 01:13 PM

They are looking ahead. Setting up basic infrastructure that can used for different contingences.

Also, the troops that were moved closer to the border did not have established facilities.

Once the facilities start taking shape, characteristics will designate intended purpose.

What is in the press is just one....

Jimbuna · 12-12-17, 02:50 PM

Quote:

RUSSIA and China practiced blasting ballistic missiles out of the sky today in a drill aimed at intimidating North Korea into submission.
Six days of military exercises intended to prepare the two superpowers for war with North Korea kicked off in Beijing on Monday.
Russian and Chinese soldiers practiced shooting down ballistic missiles today in the face of the nuclear threat from the communist nation.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...ea-news-latest

Quote:

LATEST North Korea plot? Kim Jong-un gathers top officials amid World War 3 threat

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...mp-Kim-Jong-un

It would appear the temperature may well be rising

Mr Quatro · 12-12-17, 03:42 PM

China cares ... just think of all of the cheap Christmas toys they won't be able to sell if they oppose a conflict between the USA and NK ...

Jimbuna · 12-12-17, 03:57 PM

Future trade whilst being a factor of consideration is surely not top of the list, is it?

Mr Quatro · 12-12-17, 04:00 PM

I bet they talk about it from the top down and not the bottom up ... China now has a world wide stock market to protect ...

billions of whatever they think their currency is valued at is at stake

ikalugin · 12-13-17, 01:11 AM

Skybird, I look it from another direction.

Laws limit your freedom of action or inaction. And laws can limit any freedoms as long as the society agrees to them except the freedom to change the laws themselves.

Thus I do not see how draft is an issue if you as a citizen can vote against it.

And yes, if you disagree with the laws and cannot democratically change them, you are free to leave and move to another country.

Skybird · 12-13-17, 06:51 AM

I must stand up against your view, completely. It violates most profound rights, even human rights, from a libertarian point of view, and is in conformity with collectivistic society structure like there have been traditonally in Sovjet and socialist regimes.

My view on the usefulness of elections and what you can achieve - or better: cannot achieve - by them, also is absolutely opposing yours. I will always refuse to mingle the guilt of the culprit with the options, or non-options, of the victim. If I satart to slap you in the face, it is not legit to demand from you that yiou should fall back. The right thing is to confront me and to demand from me that I stop hitting you. Becasue my right to beat you does not overrule your interest to not get beaten. I am the perpetrator, you are the victim. That I beat you in order to make you do what I demand you to do, does not change this.

kraznyi_oktjabr · 12-13-17, 03:07 PM

In China's point of view scenario where U.S. defeats North Korea and either imposes regime of their choice or merge it to their ally South Korea is highly undesirable as it brings U.S. troops into their border. In this sense its plausible that China may choose to sort this issue themselves if it becomes propable enough that Trump administration is not bluffing with their war rhetorics.

What comes to these "refugee camps" I'm not sure should I buy it as marketed or not. These "refugee camps" may aswell be cover for building support infrastructure for future military intervention.

kraznyi_oktjabr · 12-13-17, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

I think draft is defendable if we assume that people have the freedom to vote against it at the ballot box or by leaving the country.

Problem with voting option is that in modern democracies people are rarely entrusted to make this kind of decisions. In normal circumstances you cast vote for your preferred liar and then hope that 1) your candidate gets elected, 2) that your representative does what he or she promised and 3) that large enough majority of representatives share his or her objectives.

In my opinion expectation that person should move abroad to avoid draft is unreasonable. That "choice" would include leaving behind your family and friends (not everyone may want or be able to leave with you) and no foreign country has obligation A) to allow you to stay and B) to allow you to work.

I personally can accept conscription and draft when they are strictly restricted to defence of homeland. Any other wars abroad must be waged with volunteers.

Skybird · 12-13-17, 05:14 PM

Voting has two preconditions, and both are not given: voters need to be competent on matters, vioters need to be willing to deciude raitonally for the grater good, not their own selfish interest, voters must be given votings on every single issue there is, not onb packs of issues ot eb deicded that are arvbitrairly put together and even onclude issues that att he time the package was voted on even wre not even on the horizon.

Consider tzhere is a party wanting to abandon nulcear power, but keeping the draft. The other party wants to get rid of the draft, but keep nuclear power. Now, you want to get rid of both, or want to keep both - what do you vote for?

Most people are clueless and uncaring Hobbits. A few less are noisy, bullying hooligans. Only a very small handful are mindful, knowing and reasonable Vulcans (terminology introduced by Jason Brennan).

12-12-17, 07:31 AM	#931
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,762 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	So he volunteered, but then wanted to cherry-pick his assignments and wars. That is deserting, plain and simple. With a draft in place one could always argue that while the army does and cannot make a difference between men joining voluntarily and men who get "kidnapped" and forced against their will to serve, avoiding service and fleeing from the official kidnapping is no deserting, but morally perfectly legitimate self-defence. Lets face it, a draft system is injust and morally not defendable. But he volunteered. All the above was thus not valid for him. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-12-17, 07:56 AM	#932
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I think draft is defendable if we assume that people have the freedom to vote against it at the ballot box or by leaving the country. __________________ Grumpy as always.

12-12-17, 10:40 AM	#933
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,762 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	And a crime done by a cirminal is legal because viticms have the freedom to evade, to flee, to try to escape? You forget one thing here, I call it the criterion of first aggression, or "Verursacherprinzip". The one aggresisvbely imposing the consequences of his deeds on others is responsible, not the victims of these consequences. You break it - you mend it. The othe rmust not work around your breaking act - YOU have to either not breaking it, or if oyu did, YOU have to mend it. It is not morally okay to demand somebody to join the military if he doe snot want. However, if you rtefuse to do your share in case the society you live in gets attacked, you have no longer any claim towards that society. If you do not give, you lose rights to take. Its not just rights, but also duties (moral imperatives, in this case). If you refuse help to defend of what you live, you lose the right that this context/system/society must care about your well-being. Give and take, take and give. The origin of the ancient Greek word we know as "citizen", refers to small groups of armed men. Warrior, soldiers, in other words. Citizens are warriors. One of the reasons why females were no citizens in ancient Greece, since females were not allowed to carry arms. Smae for slaves, servants, subordinates, unfree, non-welathy people - none of them was a citizen. In fact the overwhelming part of the population in ancient Greek cities were not considered to be citizens with citizen rights. Only 1-3 in twenty were "citizens". - In modern time, only fascism has reminded of this implication, and then abused it, of course. Because, on the other hand and oppposite to modenr Italy and the Duce, the city state of Sparta, often accused to have been the first fascist state there was (an idiotic claim), Being a warrior not necessarily makes you hungry for war and aggression, it only means you are ready for what war brings, if need arises. When Alexander called the Greek to gather around him for his cause to conqueer the known world, the Spartans were the only ones who refused to follow, and stayed home. And while being met with scorn and mockery, they nevertheless came to the rescue of Greek homelands when foreign aggressors threatened the Greek. Citizens are warriors/soldiers. And from here you could indeed argue that as a citizen you have a duty to serve. Seems I just managed to bite my own tail. LOL I just have a big problem to let just miserable politicians decide whether I have to fight and shoot at other people and try to kill them and risk my life. I leave this decision to nobody else than to myself, and my conscience. And not before I decide for myself that here ius a valdi need or a valid reason to fight, I accept to then take cokmands by some military officers and generals that tell me to shgoot these guys and to bomb those houses. But the base decision that coems first - is it worth the fight for my conscience criteria - is first, and that oen is mine, and mine alone. I do not allow politicians - or anyone else - to order me on that decision already, I am not their slave-by-birth. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 12-12-17 at 10:56 AM.

12-12-17, 03:42 PM	#938
Mr Quatro Navy Seal Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 6,772 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	China cares ... just think of all of the cheap Christmas toys they won't be able to sell if they oppose a conflict between the USA and NK ... __________________ pla•teau noun a relatively stable level, period, or condition a level of attainment or achievement Lord help me get to the next plateau ..

12-12-17, 03:57 PM	#939
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,272 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Future trade whilst being a factor of consideration is surely not top of the list, is it? __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

12-12-17, 01:13 PM	#936
Delgard Captain Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: AZ & DC Posts: 487 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	They are looking ahead. Setting up basic infrastructure that can used for different contingences. Also, the troops that were moved closer to the border did not have established facilities. Once the facilities start taking shape, characteristics will designate intended purpose. What is in the press is just one....

12-12-17, 04:00 PM	#940
Mr Quatro Navy Seal Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 6,772 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I bet they talk about it from the top down and not the bottom up ... China now has a world wide stock market to protect ... billions of whatever they think their currency is valued at is at stake __________________ pla•teau noun a relatively stable level, period, or condition a level of attainment or achievement Lord help me get to the next plateau ..

12-13-17, 01:11 AM	#941
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Skybird, I look it from another direction. Laws limit your freedom of action or inaction. And laws can limit any freedoms as long as the society agrees to them except the freedom to change the laws themselves. Thus I do not see how draft is an issue if you as a citizen can vote against it. And yes, if you disagree with the laws and cannot democratically change them, you are free to leave and move to another country. __________________ Grumpy as always.

12-13-17, 06:51 AM	#942
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,762 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I must stand up against your view, completely. It violates most profound rights, even human rights, from a libertarian point of view, and is in conformity with collectivistic society structure like there have been traditonally in Sovjet and socialist regimes. My view on the usefulness of elections and what you can achieve - or better: cannot achieve - by them, also is absolutely opposing yours. I will always refuse to mingle the guilt of the culprit with the options, or non-options, of the victim. If I satart to slap you in the face, it is not legit to demand from you that yiou should fall back. The right thing is to confront me and to demand from me that I stop hitting you. Becasue my right to beat you does not overrule your interest to not get beaten. I am the perpetrator, you are the victim. That I beat you in order to make you do what I demand you to do, does not change this. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-13-17, 03:07 PM	#943
kraznyi_oktjabr Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Republiken Finland Posts: 1,803 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	In China's point of view scenario where U.S. defeats North Korea and either imposes regime of their choice or merge it to their ally South Korea is highly undesirable as it brings U.S. troops into their border. In this sense its plausible that China may choose to sort this issue themselves if it becomes propable enough that Trump administration is not bluffing with their war rhetorics. What comes to these "refugee camps" I'm not sure should I buy it as marketed or not. These "refugee camps" may aswell be cover for building support infrastructure for future military intervention. __________________ You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic. - Dr. House

12-13-17, 05:14 PM	#945
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,762 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Voting has two preconditions, and both are not given: voters need to be competent on matters, vioters need to be willing to deciude raitonally for the grater good, not their own selfish interest, voters must be given votings on every single issue there is, not onb packs of issues ot eb deicded that are arvbitrairly put together and even onclude issues that att he time the package was voted on even wre not even on the horizon. Consider tzhere is a party wanting to abandon nulcear power, but keeping the draft. The other party wants to get rid of the draft, but keep nuclear power. Now, you want to get rid of both, or want to keep both - what do you vote for? Most people are clueless and uncaring Hobbits. A few less are noisy, bullying hooligans. Only a very small handful are mindful, knowing and reasonable Vulcans (terminology introduced by Jason Brennan). __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.