Here we go again-Ukraine once again - Page 623

Dargo · 01-24-23, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Scholz agreed to send tanks to Ukraine, - Der Spiegel

Federal Chancellor of Germany Olaf Scholz agreed to provide Ukraine with leopard-2 tanks.

As Censor.NET informs, the influential German publication Der Spiegel writes about it.

"After months of debate, Chancellor Scholz decided to deliver battle tanks to Ukraine. Apparently, the allies also want to agree to this. Abrams tanks could have arrived from the USA," the message states. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3395465

Netherlands plans to buy 18 Leopard-2 tanks from Germany and transfer them to Ukraine, - Rutte

Netherlands is considering a possibility of supplying Ukraine with 18 modern Leopard 2 main battle tanks, which they have leased from Germany.

"We have leased them, which means we can buy them, which means we can donate them," Prime Minister Mark Rutte said in an interview with FAZ and some other international media in Brussels on Tuesday, informs Censor.NЕТ.

He continued: "If it makes sense in a bigger aid package with other countries like Finland and Portugal, we are ready to consider it."

"But there is no decision yet," Rutte added.

Nevertheless, this is an important signal. Germany has also coordinated previous arms deliveries with the Netherlands, such as the Panzerhaubitze 2000.

"I have a great understanding of the Ukrainian request," Rutte said.

It is now up to the German government to decide whether to supply the Leopard.

"If Germany had said no, Poland, Finland, Portugal and ourselves would have to consider obtaining permission to export and supply the tanks on a bilateral basis. "But we are not at that stage yet, and I don't want to put pressure on Germany," Rutte continued.

He noted that a few days after Russia's attack on Ukraine, the German government allowed the Netherlands to supply Kyiv with German-made rocket-propelled grenade launchers. Berlin also decided to make such a delivery at that time. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3395475

I have @OlafScholz on the phone crying. https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/st...63480300257280

Jimbuna · 01-24-23, 02:32 PM

Good one

Dargo · 01-24-23, 02:34 PM

Head of Russia's Wagner military Yevgeny Prigozhin, unhappy everyone thinks his rapist, murdering, criminal, lowlife soldiers are rapist, murdering, criminal lowlife soldiers. Wants a law against anyone "discrediting" his rapists.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-...760c0a9ed12e21

Skybird · 01-24-23, 02:36 PM

At least "one company of Leopard 2A6" shoulk be send, according to various German media. Possibly more. Up to 19 tanks in total.

A6 has significantly improved protection levels over A4. The cannon and weapon system have been replaced: so to get more power and greater foring range. Also, new KE (SABOT) ammunition. Commander got a new own thermal. New smoke grenades. Added armour. New Electric turret engine/cannon stabilization. New computer system. New track skirts. New spall-liners, new hatches.

Good to see they do not let go simple refurbished A4s. If they fall prey to Russian tanks, it would not be nice advertising for Rheinmetal et. al.

Rumours stubbornly fly around that the Americans first agreed to send at least a symbolic amount of Abrams before Scholz gave his permission.

Jimbuna · 01-24-23, 02:38 PM

In Berdiansk, car with traitor Mamai, who organized pseudo-referendum and "surrendered" patriots to occupiers, was blown up. She is in hospital, Fedorov. PHOTOS

In the temporarily occupied Berdiansk, a car was blown up by Valentina Mamai.

This was announced by the mayor of Melitopol, Ivan Fedorov, Censor.NET reports.

"A warm greeting in the form of an exploding car was received by a local lover of the Russian world, Valentina Mamai.

She gladly met the occupiers, organized a pseudo-referendum, and betrayed the patriots of Berdiansk. Now in the hospital, he is shaking from fear for his life," Fedorov said. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3395415

Dargo · 01-24-23, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

At least "one company of Leopard 2A6" shoulk be send, according to various German media. Possibly more. Up to 19 tanks in total.

A6 has significantly improved protection levels over A4. The cannon and weapon system have been replaced: so to get more power and greater foring range. Also, new KE (SABOT) ammunition. Commander got a new own thermal. New smoke grenades. Added armour. New Electric turret engine/cannon stabilization. New computer system. New track skirts. New spall-liners, new hatches.

Good to see they do not let go simple refurbished A4s. If they fall prey to Russian tanks, it would not be nice advertising for Rheinmetal et. al.

Rumours stubbornly fly around that the Americans first agreed to send at least a symbolic amount of Abrams before Scholz gave his permission.

The leopard 2 from Poland and Norway are the A4

Skybird · 01-24-23, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dargo

The leopard 2 from Poland and Norway are the A4

Yes, but the Germans seem to send A6s themselves.

The difference is even visually easy to make. A4s have flat frontal turret armour, like Tigers in WW2; A5, A6 and A7 and their international derivates have wedge armour.

A6 is the German standard tank, only a minority of vehicles are modernised to A7 standard.

I am surprised a bit, I must admit. The time argument - many months to refurbish industry A4s - is understandable why obviously active BW tanks get send, but that it is not the around 20 A5s that are now exclusively used in a minor role to act as Opfor tanks in manouvers, but active A6 tanks from the BW pool, really surprises me. I expected a first delivery of these A5s, and later maybe some refurbished A4s. Not A6s.

Skybird · 01-24-23, 04:01 PM

Did I quote German media with rumours of the US sending at least a symbolic number of tanks to make the Germans play ball? Forget it, talk now is of 30-50 Abrams - in US media.

https://abcnews.go.com/International...ry?id=96638875

If all this is true, numbers start to grow into interesting and militarily relevant realms. 14 Polish, 14+ German, 14 British, 30-50 American, maybe 19 Dutch, possibly more tanks from Portugal, and I think Slovenia and the Czech Republic. Maybe Spain.

Skybird · 01-24-23, 05:50 PM

That did not take long - the debate about F-16s and other combat aircraft, has already now flared up in full.

The answre of course must be: YES.

We better get used to the idea sooner rather later: to send everything we can.

I am certain that they will not get F-35s, as Zelensky has demanded today, however. And Tornadoe in my opinion make no sense, as explained earlier. But Gripens, maybe, ore Rafales. I am not certain about France on Rafales and Leclercs, however.

This war will last much longer. It will not be over this summer or autumn. Poissible even that it kind fo stalls in palce and "freezes". In nthis case an ongoing uparmin g of the ukriane is necessary, like the West must practically in parts renew its own defences from scratch.

Remaining trade with Russia and remaning relations must be cut. We must lower a new iron curtain.

I - ironically - sometimes remarked (in totally different contexts) how much I "missed the cold war" and wished the iron curtain back. Well, it seems I get my way.

Dargo · 01-24-23, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Did I quote German media with rumours of the US sending at least a symbolic number of tanks to make the Germans play ball? Forget it, talk now is of 30-50 Abrams - in US media.

https://abcnews.go.com/International...ry?id=96638875

If all this is true, numbers start to grow into interesting and militarily relevant realms. 14 Polish, 14+ German, 14 British, 30-50 American, maybe 19 Dutch, possibly more tanks from Portugal, and I think Slovenia and the Czech Republic. Maybe Spain.

Dutch will likely buy the leased ones (18 leopards 2A6) from Germany and send these to Ukraine.

Dargo · 01-24-23, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

That did not take long - the debate about F-16s and other combat aircraft, has already now flared up in full.

The answre of course must be: YES.

We better get used to the idea sooner rather later: to send everything we can.

I am certain that they will not get F-35s, as Zelensky has demanded today, however. And Tornadoe in my opinion make no sense, as explained earlier. But Gripens, maybe, ore Rafales. I am not certain about France on Rafales and Leclercs, however.

This war will last much longer. It will not be over this summer or autumn. Poissible even that it kind fo stalls in palce and "freezes". In nthis case an ongoing uparmin g of the ukriane is necessary, like the West must practically in parts renew its own defences from scratch.

Remaining trade with Russia and remaning relations must be cut. We must lower a new iron curtain.

I - ironically - sometimes remarked (in totally different contexts) how much I "missed the cold war" and wished the iron curtain back. Well, it seems I get my way.

The Netherlands changes from F-16 to F-35, so we have enough to supply the Ukraine air force.

Skybird · 01-24-23, 06:06 PM

If you are not careful, you will end up with Russians sailing around in their BAVs in your Isselmeer.

Dargo · 01-24-23, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

If you are not careful, you will end up with Russians sailing around in their BAVs in your Isselmeer.

After MH17 we could not retaliate, but now we will have our revenge, and we are rich bitches to pay for it all

Jimbuna · 01-25-23, 06:39 AM

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz says his country will send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.

Scholz has told a cabinet meeting that Germany will send 14 Leopard tanks and give permission for other countries to send theirs too.

The move follows weeks of international pressure from Kyiv and its allies to approve the export of the German-made tanks.

Public opinion in Germany is divided and Scholz is said to have been insistent that the US jointly sends its M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine.

US President Joe Biden's administration is also expected to announce plans to send at least 30 of the advanced combat vehicles.

Ukrainian officials have welcomed what they see as a potential game-changer in the war.

President Volodymyr Zelensky believes his country needs at least 300 battle tanks to defeat Russia.

Russia's ambassador in Washington has warned that any deliveries of US tanks would be a blatant provocation.

Jimbuna · 01-25-23, 06:41 AM

Chris Parry and Andrew Bagshaw killed in Soledar rescue attempt

British nationals Chris Parry and Andrew Bagshaw, who were reported missing in eastern Ukraine, have been killed, their families have said.

Mr Bagshaw, 47, and Mr Parry, 28, were last seen heading to the city of Soledar on 6 January.

Mr Bagshaw's family said the pair were attempting to rescue an elderly woman when their cars were hit by a shell.

The family of Mr Parry said the men had died while "attempting a humanitarian evacuation".

Earlier this month, the Russian mercenary group Wagner claimed the body of one of the men had been found.

Soledar had been the focus of intense fighting and earlier this month Russia's military claimed to have captured the Ukrainian salt-mine time town after a long battle.

In a statement issued by the UK Foreign Office, Rob, Christine and Katy Parry wrote: "It is with great sadness we have to announce that our beloved Chrissy has been killed along with his colleague Andrew Bagshaw whilst attempting a humanitarian evacuation from Soledar, eastern Ukraine."

Speaking of Mr Parry, originally from Truro in Cornwall, they said: "His selfless determination in helping the old, young and disadvantaged there has made us and his larger family extremely proud. We never imagined we would be saying goodbye to Chris when he had such a full life ahead of him. He was a caring son, fantastic brother, a best friend to so many and a loving partner to Olga.

"Chris was a confident, outward looking and adventurous young man who was loyal to everyone he knew. He lived and worked away as a software engineer but Cornwall was always his home. He loved rock climbing, cycling, running and skydiving and wanted to travel the world.

"He found himself drawn to Ukraine in March in its darkest hour at the start of the Russian invasion and helped those most in need, saving over 400 lives plus many abandoned animals.

"It is impossible to put into words how much he will be missed but he will forever be in our hearts.

"We feel so privileged that he chose our family to be part of."

Mr Parry and Mr Bagshaw had been in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine doing voluntary work.

Scientific researcher Mr Bagshaw was a British national but lived in New Zealand. He had been a volunteer in Ukraine since April.

His parents, Dame Sue and Prof Phil Bagshaw, said the men had been delivering food and medicines and helping the elderly.

In a statement released via news outlets they said Mr Parry and Mr Bagshaw "were attempting to rescue an elderly woman from Soledar, in an area of intense military action, when their car was hit by an artillery shell.

"Andrew selflessly took many personal risks and saved many lives; we love him and are very proud indeed of what he did."

They added: "The world needs to be strong and stand with Ukraine, giving them the military support they need now, and help to rebuild their shattered country after the war."

Belgian journalist, Arnaud de Decker, who interviewed the pair three days before they went missing, described the evacuations they were carrying out in Ukraine as "one of the most dangerous jobs you could do right now".

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, the journalist said Mr Parry had just returned from an evacuation mission and "seemed very experienced".

"He saved a lot of lives", said Mr Decker, adding that Mr Parry's actions were "truly heroic".

Mr Parry's last words on camera were "as long as people are willing to be evacuated, I will be ready to go", Mr Decker told the BBC.

"I think you can only conclude one thing, that's a very inspiring personality - I'm sure that the family must be very proud of the actions of Chris."

The Foreign Office has previously warned against all travel to Ukraine, saying there is "a real risk to life".

British nationals still in Ukraine should leave immediately if it is safe to do so, it said.

Ukraine's airspace is closed and for those in the vicinity of military activity, the Foreign Office has advised people to stay indoors, away from windows and remain alert to developments.

Mr Parry previously spoke to BBC Radio Cornwall on 2 January from the Bakhmut area in eastern Ukraine.

Explaining his motivation for being there, he said he wanted to help children in particular.

"To be able to get them out of these war-torn areas, it makes it definitely more worthwhile than anything else that I can imagine," he said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64394105

01-24-23, 02:32 PM	#9332
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,168 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Good one __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-24-23, 02:36 PM	#9334
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,738 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	At least "one company of Leopard 2A6" shoulk be send, according to various German media. Possibly more. Up to 19 tanks in total. A6 has significantly improved protection levels over A4. The cannon and weapon system have been replaced: so to get more power and greater foring range. Also, new KE (SABOT) ammunition. Commander got a new own thermal. New smoke grenades. Added armour. New Electric turret engine/cannon stabilization. New computer system. New track skirts. New spall-liners, new hatches. Good to see they do not let go simple refurbished A4s. If they fall prey to Russian tanks, it would not be nice advertising for Rheinmetal et. al. Rumours stubbornly fly around that the Americans first agreed to send at least a symbolic amount of Abrams before Scholz gave his permission. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-24-23, 02:38 PM	#9335
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,168 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	In Berdiansk, car with traitor Mamai, who organized pseudo-referendum and "surrendered" patriots to occupiers, was blown up. She is in hospital, Fedorov. PHOTOS In the temporarily occupied Berdiansk, a car was blown up by Valentina Mamai. This was announced by the mayor of Melitopol, Ivan Fedorov, Censor.NET reports. "A warm greeting in the form of an exploding car was received by a local lover of the Russian world, Valentina Mamai. She gladly met the occupiers, organized a pseudo-referendum, and betrayed the patriots of Berdiansk. Now in the hospital, he is shaking from fear for his life," Fedorov said. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3395415 __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-24-23, 04:01 PM	#9338
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,738 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Did I quote German media with rumours of the US sending at least a symbolic number of tanks to make the Germans play ball? Forget it, talk now is of *30-50* Abrams - in US media. https://abcnews.go.com/International...ry?id=96638875 If all this is true, numbers start to grow into interesting and militarily relevant realms. 14 Polish, 14+ German, 14 British, 30-50 American, maybe 19 Dutch, possibly more tanks from Portugal, and I think Slovenia and the Czech Republic. Maybe Spain. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-24-23, 05:50 PM	#9339
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,738 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	That did not take long - the debate about F-16s and other combat aircraft, has already now flared up in full. The answre of course must be: YES. We better get used to the idea sooner rather later: to send everything we can. I am certain that they will not get F-35s, as Zelensky has demanded today, however. And Tornadoe in my opinion make no sense, as explained earlier. But Gripens, maybe, ore Rafales. I am not certain about France on Rafales and Leclercs, however. This war will last much longer. It will not be over this summer or autumn. Poissible even that it kind fo stalls in palce and "freezes". In nthis case an ongoing uparmin g of the ukriane is necessary, like the West must practically in parts renew its own defences from scratch. Remaining trade with Russia and remaning relations must be cut. We must lower a new iron curtain. I - ironically - sometimes remarked (in totally different contexts) how much I "missed the cold war" and wished the iron curtain back. Well, it seems I get my way. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-24-23, 06:06 PM	#9342
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,738 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	If you are not careful, you will end up with Russians sailing around in their BAVs in your Isselmeer. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-25-23, 06:39 AM	#9344
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,168 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	German Chancellor Olaf Scholz says his country will send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. Scholz has told a cabinet meeting that Germany will send 14 Leopard tanks and give permission for other countries to send theirs too. The move follows weeks of international pressure from Kyiv and its allies to approve the export of the German-made tanks. Public opinion in Germany is divided and Scholz is said to have been insistent that the US jointly sends its M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. US President Joe Biden's administration is also expected to announce plans to send at least 30 of the advanced combat vehicles. Ukrainian officials have welcomed what they see as a potential game-changer in the war. President Volodymyr Zelensky believes his country needs at least 300 battle tanks to defeat Russia. Russia's ambassador in Washington has warned that any deliveries of US tanks would be a blatant provocation. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-25-23, 06:41 AM	#9345
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,168 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Chris Parry and Andrew Bagshaw killed in Soledar rescue attempt British nationals Chris Parry and Andrew Bagshaw, who were reported missing in eastern Ukraine, have been killed, their families have said. Mr Bagshaw, 47, and Mr Parry, 28, were last seen heading to the city of Soledar on 6 January. Mr Bagshaw's family said the pair were attempting to rescue an elderly woman when their cars were hit by a shell. The family of Mr Parry said the men had died while "attempting a humanitarian evacuation". Earlier this month, the Russian mercenary group Wagner claimed the body of one of the men had been found. Soledar had been the focus of intense fighting and earlier this month Russia's military claimed to have captured the Ukrainian salt-mine time town after a long battle. In a statement issued by the UK Foreign Office, Rob, Christine and Katy Parry wrote: "It is with great sadness we have to announce that our beloved Chrissy has been killed along with his colleague Andrew Bagshaw whilst attempting a humanitarian evacuation from Soledar, eastern Ukraine." Speaking of Mr Parry, originally from Truro in Cornwall, they said: "His selfless determination in helping the old, young and disadvantaged there has made us and his larger family extremely proud. We never imagined we would be saying goodbye to Chris when he had such a full life ahead of him. He was a caring son, fantastic brother, a best friend to so many and a loving partner to Olga. "Chris was a confident, outward looking and adventurous young man who was loyal to everyone he knew. He lived and worked away as a software engineer but Cornwall was always his home. He loved rock climbing, cycling, running and skydiving and wanted to travel the world. "He found himself drawn to Ukraine in March in its darkest hour at the start of the Russian invasion and helped those most in need, saving over 400 lives plus many abandoned animals. "It is impossible to put into words how much he will be missed but he will forever be in our hearts. "We feel so privileged that he chose our family to be part of." Mr Parry and Mr Bagshaw had been in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine doing voluntary work. Scientific researcher Mr Bagshaw was a British national but lived in New Zealand. He had been a volunteer in Ukraine since April. His parents, Dame Sue and Prof Phil Bagshaw, said the men had been delivering food and medicines and helping the elderly. In a statement released via news outlets they said Mr Parry and Mr Bagshaw "were attempting to rescue an elderly woman from Soledar, in an area of intense military action, when their car was hit by an artillery shell. "Andrew selflessly took many personal risks and saved many lives; we love him and are very proud indeed of what he did." They added: "The world needs to be strong and stand with Ukraine, giving them the military support they need now, and help to rebuild their shattered country after the war." Belgian journalist, Arnaud de Decker, who interviewed the pair three days before they went missing, described the evacuations they were carrying out in Ukraine as "one of the most dangerous jobs you could do right now". Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, the journalist said Mr Parry had just returned from an evacuation mission and "seemed very experienced". "He saved a lot of lives", said Mr Decker, adding that Mr Parry's actions were "truly heroic". Mr Parry's last words on camera were "as long as people are willing to be evacuated, I will be ready to go", Mr Decker told the BBC. "I think you can only conclude one thing, that's a very inspiring personality - I'm sure that the family must be very proud of the actions of Chris." The Foreign Office has previously warned against all travel to Ukraine, saying there is "a real risk to life". British nationals still in Ukraine should leave immediately if it is safe to do so, it said. Ukraine's airspace is closed and for those in the vicinity of military activity, the Foreign Office has advised people to stay indoors, away from windows and remain alert to developments. Mr Parry previously spoke to BBC Radio Cornwall on 2 January from the Bakhmut area in eastern Ukraine. Explaining his motivation for being there, he said he wanted to help children in particular. "To be able to get them out of these war-torn areas, it makes it definitely more worthwhile than anything else that I can imagine," he said. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64394105 __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!