Russians alleges British of spying

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

wall street journal, finacial times (both online), Bloomberg which all are dedicated stick and share news papers / programmes

I am not sure what you are getting at. If it is that you have seen the term economic collapse used to describe the US's economic state, then I will tell you that they are misusing the term as well.

Once again, our old friendly axiom surfaces: Not everything said in print or news media or publication is absolutely correct and true.

[TteFAboB]

Dig, dig, dig, you find what you seek, it's the case with our Type941 friend:

And Russia is still being waged war upon it by the west, and the same war that it has been losing for years - the information war. Say anything bad about Russia (the gas pipe explosion) and people believe it. Anything good, or decent - and people think it's a lie. It's been like that for some time, and always will be probably till some huge global war that will not be an information one (russia usually can fight there pretty good, as opposed to PR). The fact that many people today already believe that it was the US that won the WW2 is perhaps the best example how russia lost this information war. Never mind the fact it lost half of all casualties (those are now dismissed as Stalin's own purges).

Are the brits spying? If I can put a bet on that, I'd put the house on it. Of course they are. Always have been. All I hope is that Russia is spying in UK as well, that's about the only way they can go about it really (another way you can do it, is spy on your own people, but let's leave that to the leader of the free world, the beloved by some here Bush!).

The gas pipe though - that's just hillareous - I'm totally amazed how the rest of the world is actually listening to what that large glovepuppet Saakashvili is saying (you should hear his interview to Reuters - you'd never think it's a country leader talking...)

A nice youch of victimization, a clichè hit on Bush and the "free world", and a surprise in the end, which is surprising, for a seer.

ah, the russian hater Happy Times. What good are you for a non-biased discussion?

Oh my, look who's talking!

Yeah, it's been much more than 70 years that the west hates russia and all that land.

It dates back to roman empire really - a disgusting, barbaric nation that was decayed to the core (ROME) with its gladiatorial games, it's bare arse army and absolutely corrupt government. It was beaten by these 'barbarians'. That's when it all started really. the 'holy roman empire' and the split with the east, all that great stuff. It wouldn't hurt to know that before the mongol invasion, Kiev Russ was known as land of cities, and many monastries in russia were producers of all sorts of weaponry for the western europe (gun powder units). It also wouldn't hurt to know that Ivan the Terrible was not the monster he's portrayed but actually introduced these to russia (before the well known Peter the Great legends tell us):
- introduced the jury to the court system
- free elementary education (in churches and monasteries)
- medical quarantine on borders
- first regular russian army and one of the first war uniform in the world (Strelec)
- stopped the tatar skirmishes for good
- made the society more or less equal (there was no tie to land in the sense it existed in europe at the time where - and peasant's children were free to do what they want)
- forbid slavery work
- expanded country's territory in 30 times
- had a few 1000 percent growth in wealth of population
- noone was killed without trial and the number of actually 'repressed' was about 5000 people

This is 1500s by the way...

all of those are documented in many sources, i'm just not putting them down as the word 'Sudebnik Ivano Groznogo' would tell jack to majority here.

And now here's the fun part - you won't believe any of this just because you don't think it's possible and you still treat russia as this dumb, naive, drunk nation of beggars and theives, ruled by a spy dictator. That bit about Ivan the terrible is one of the things people aren't familiar with - to many, his just a moron who went mad and slaughtered thousands of his own people (must be the name!).

So, the Roman Empire, the new one which is even worse than the old one, defeated the glorious Russia, the old one, the room is open for hate or envy, and as Master Yoda taught us, both of these lead to blindness, not good for a seer.

Have fun with the history. Have at least an open mind, otherwise you'll end up hating everyone who dares to say differently (like Happy Times = an ironic nickname really).

Look who's talking again.

NGOs (one of which involved in the scandal is Moscow Helsinki Group.. )... Well, Britain will shut up about those now, that's why this scandal is coming out now. Britain criticized russia for it - and now Russia shows Britain sponsoring these that potentially are against the russian government. Democracy is fantastic for the stupid oppressed people because it's very easy to wave infront of them and convince them that life will get better. Just doesn't work that way. Look at Georgia with an idiot for a leader, and Ukraine with a guy whose wife is american - what kind of country loyalty can he hace? He didn't even dare to get out yesterday to that same square where he was elected president 1 year ago - the people might get 'angry'.

Back there he was talking about having an open mind, but he defines Democracy according to the political situation in Georgia and Ukraine! And because the Ukranian wife is American, she will probably work against the nation, as any reasonable American should and would do!

Let me tell you about Georgia and Ukraine!

Terroist (criminals, whatever) blow up a pipelines to georgia. Beyond repair. georgia's first response "Nothing else comes to my head, must have been the russians doing it on purpose". Read to what this 30+ year old Saakvashvili is saying. So now, the workers fixing the pipelines have to go into this -20C cold, and start fixing the pipelines (russians) just so georgia doesn't freeze. Yesterday, some petty officier is ordering the gas supply to russian embasy stopped because "those little people are probably responsible for this anyway - I'm sure they'll have other means of getting the power". Meanwhile, Ukraine, who already STOLE quite a lot of gas from supplies to Europe, is deciding to give AID to georgia that's freezing up. Ukraine, that claims to have no gas of its own and is struggling due to colds week ago, is giving RUSSIAN gas away for free to georgia as a type of humanitarian aid. How nice. I don't know, but I believe sh*t like that will lead to a full war at some point if the puppets in Ukraine and Georgia don't stop. Meanwhile, countries like Hungary have to start thinking of getting gas from alternative places, like Afrika. Sure, it's far away and expensive, but at least theres no Ukraine in the middle.

Current Georgia and Ukraine governments are the ones elected on utter unpopularity of an alternative regime. Their ONLY way to consolidate people is to create an outside enemy and blame them for everything, from lack of tangerines on the hillside to the color of milk their cows are giving. This outside enemy is Russia. And there's only ONE country that benefits from this instability - the USA. Because for planning a war on IRAN, USA needs the bases at some point in the caucases. Azerbaidzhan and Georgia sound qutie good. Russia on the other hand is totally isolated. To be honest, I'm am completely stunned that Russia isn't actually changing to direct confrontation with these puppet regimes and doesn't take them out like the US does. For russia, saakashvili is same as Castro for US. I don't see them staying in power much longer, because first and foremost thanks to them their people are now freezing. Georgia freely supports tchechen terrorists in Pankiss canyon where they can rest and get some supplies of humans and weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if Georgia will initiate a war confilict with Russia hoping for bakcing of the west (over Sukhumi) and this can get ulgy fast. But I doubt US will want to start miliatry conflict directly against russia over a georgia. but if anyone has some doubt if US is hostile to russia, wake up. the government of the US has always had the goal of destabilizing russia and never allowing it to be a superpower. This time around russia is riding a strong economy and getting stronger every day, and that worries the hell of US.

He may think I am deaf but he's completely BLIND! Can't he see this is EXACTLY the case? He blames the USA for everything! The USA is the greater enemy, danger and target!

Yes, see, that's exactly my point. You just haven't got a clue why the gas was cut in ukraine, and don't even bother to question the motives behind BLOWING UP their own gaslines to Georgia (beyond repair, I might add). I'm sorry, but it's so difficult to speak with an opponent who ignores reality. Again, look it: Ukraine was deprived of gas because it DEMANDED to be supplied gas under prices that are 5 times less than those which go to EU. Georgia is just georgia, the president is 'samodur' (look it up in russian, I can't translate, basically a self-induced-idiot but hard to explain it correctly) and that's all.

Russia didn't cut gas - GAZPROM did. Putin's not in charge of it. Gazprom is a business that didnt' want to lose money. Ukraine made it political, UKRAINE. And I believe the next gas crisis will be the end of Yucsenko as a president.

It's so difficult to speak with an opponent who ignores reality, isn't it?

Regarding the East West - I'm not reaching back for no reason. The East West division never existed until the break up of Roman empire, and thanks to THE CHURCH, we have what we have. It's all about the myths that the "west" created about the east - an uncivilized, barbaric, pagan. Rings a bell? Guess what, the east was so much more developed during the Roman times, that it's given credit to. For one, its army was not a bunch of bare arse legioneers, but more like covered in armour cataphracts.

history has been rewritten many many times. To happy times.

I'm not saying russia is all saint. Russia's life under tatar mongol invasion IMO destroyed so much of it. Not only the economy, but the whole culture that existed before it. Ever since the 300 year invasion, russia took over and intergrated so much of barbaric (truly) mongols. pretty much all of our swear language now is derived from tatar mongol. It's very barking like, very offensive. Story goes the first time mongols 'visited' russia and fought the 'varjags' (vikings basically) that were enjoying ruling status in the Russ, there was a fight. A big fight, where the russians lost. So they surrendered. They assumed as always, they'd be allowed to go back as noblemen, and so on. But now - the tatars took all of them, put them on the ground, and DANCED on them for hours celebrating their win. Obviously they all died. So all of a sudden a very civilized nation was turned on its head by a very brutal mongol invader. With time, russians took over so much of their brash, brutal ways that they became a part of us forever (unfortunately). Things, such as lack of any respect by the rulers towards its people. That's why in Russia for centuries, the government never felt responsible before its own people. That sh*t is centuries old, not just communism induced. That's how we are - our own unique civilization developed in that manner. The biggest tragedy was this mongol invasion that was nothing like any other invasion. It was many generations long, the became part of russia. Later one, when Russia changed this domination (Ivan the Terrible), the mongol elite horse archers were used in the russian army as key task forces. they were integrated basicaly, and now we don't have any sort of hatred to mongols as Estonia has towards germans and russians for example.

The east/west division is mainly thanks to the church though, and indeed it goes a looong way back.

Again, a greater enemy destroyed the glorious Russia, the Mongols, there must be always an external enemy, the US suits this role perfectly.

I'll gladly reply to your post G. in full, but a bit later. One thing that struck me now is you believe honestly that government in Ukraina is democratic. Which is a mojore mistake. It's just another corrupt coalition (that fell apart btw) that's taken over the old one. Son of Yuchenko is driving around in cars that cost half a million euro, use cellphones that cost 40000 dollars, and live in very shady apartments registered to unknown parties. When confronted with all of this (how is it possible for such poor nation to have such well funded life of sons president) the answer was typical 'let's focus on real issues, he's a good boy, that's all' blah. Reality? Yushenko is as corrupt as anyone else over there, he's a part of former government that he replaced, what more do you want to know! If you think he's some white sheep - wake up mate. He's just got 1 way to stay in power - blame russia for everything, because it drives SOME part of his country. But not the western part that is totally pro russian... You have to realize, that Russian and Ukranian people's closeness is not a made up thing. It's a fact - our nations are very closely related so for Russia to be having an interest in Ukraine is perfectly natural, and not so many oppose this as CNN would have you belief. My grandmother is ukranian for example. It's the Ukranian governent that's trying to present this as national issue. Matter of the fact it that Yushenko is a puppet of the US and that's the full stop.

See? From there on is where we started.

So, I think this clearly shows Type941 is anti-american, when he speaks of the USA as the ancient Roman Empire and gives the empire all those negative adjectives while glorifying ancient Russia. He is anti-american because he believes the US must go down for Russia to grow and control its neighbors, and because Democracy is associated with the US he must be anti-democracy by auto-pilot too. Anti-american neo-sophist apologist of hidden intentions, probably the hope for the rise of a new soviet union.

[Kapitan]

even if it comes directly from the stock exchange?

That's what an economic collapse is, and that is what I have been trying to tell you. You mean recession.

Yes recession,

now collapse can happen to any country at any time regardless of savings debt or what not, you could wake up tommorrow and find america has become the weakest country in the world (NOTE ; VERY VERY HIGHLY UNLIKELY)

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

even if it comes directly from the stock exchange?

Yes. The leadership at the NYSE has always had quite a flair for the dramatic.

[Kapitan]

NYSE i know FTSE and dow jones are ok in fact FTSE100 is straight

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Type941

To TteFAboB, the lover of Democracy with a capital D - why don't you go to Iraq and support it, if you are so bloody righteous and believing. I wouldn't go because I think it's sad what the US is doing there, but if you are so fond of Democracy, and belive in the sainthood of the leaders claiming they are protecting it in Iraq - gotta go man... Otherwise all your speech is just that.

Oh, and I don't get your qoutes too much, and the part about the joke which you didn't make is just not spot on anything. I say Europe is the one financing american debt (which is the truth), and you say ... ? I can't even figure it out!

BTW, please don't opine on finance if you get your business news from CNN moneyline or whatnot. Please.

Anyway, TFB, I don't really see what exactly is your point, you keep screaming something about democracy, few dubious qoutes, but not really looks like you have any view or any response to what has been said. I've seen a response like yours so many times that I get bored half way through reading it. Sorry. Same song, same denial about the truth

Re-evaluate your quotes on my post above and look for yourself who lives in denial, I'd support Democracy in Iraq anytime.

I didn't commented any of you "financial" opinions exactly because of the joke I didn't made, wait, are you talking about the "economy" or only about "finance"?

You questions have no answer:

I'm right in saying you have little power these days in terms of determining where your counrty goes in future. In fact, you have very little power. The US is the strongest example of that. The Media and instutions are used to control the public opinion. Even americans agree on that. The media has long never questioned seriously the validity of war and noone really is responsible there before the people. there seem to be some 'political' trials here and there, but n any case, such huge country as US can not be successful and fully democratic at the same time. And the fanaticism of americans screaming they are democratic at the top of their lungs further confirms that the US is the the most Free country in the world. Free from Democracy.

It's classic case of Roman Empire.

What is this?! Romans spread their citizenship and brought in slaves, Americans refuse to hand out citizenship and want the flow of immigrants to remain under control, Romans conquered and transformed the land to what they needed or wanted, Americans import from foreign lands, your comparison is an intellectual fraud.

Am I supposed to give you a lesson on Democracy? That's not something you'll learn from me now, your idea of popular power is far less democratic, you see the institutions as detriments and direct democracy as true power, you got it on reverse, the latter cannot even exist without the first, which is a proof of how much authority you have to speak of the state of Democracy in the US as you've repeatedly done before: none.

That's my point.