Erich Topp died 27/12/2005

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Bite me!

Is it just me, or is it difficult to try to understand someone who wants me to bite him?

We are in a grown-up world here, and you have written one of the most childish posts I have ever seen in my life.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by U-552Erich-Topp

This thread has become way out of line. I hope admin can fix it.

I'm monitoring the thread closely and will continue to do so.
It is badly off topic and turns a bit nasty every now and then.
However, there are some valid opinions expressed as well and if everybody presses the 'preview' button before the 'submit' button I might not have to lock it, but it's gonna be a close call...

Abraham

(with moderator cap on)

[drEaPer]

Please dont close a thread that turns so interesting and philosophical!

It doesnt happen very often that people discuss such things, in an apropriate manner, and I am really positively suprised about the ppl participating.
We raise fundamental problems of war, its ethnics and justifcations.
Discussing can only open eyes. Of course, only, as long as its in an apropriate manner.


Lets keep the standard I know from subsim, and lets show that we can also politely debate sensitive topics here.





Now Iceman brought something up. Knowing whats right, and doing the right thing.
->
Saying that you would die for the right thing and oppose your country while doing so on the one hand, and actually doing it and dying while trying (and you will, trust me, there was no chance in nazi germany for any opposition, they all got hunted and killed if they dared to speak up) on the other hand, are two things that differ ALOT. They differ through a biological force that is out of question and cannot be debated: Instinct of self preservation.

Once this instinct gets to you, words mean nothing anymore - Unless...well unless you are a trained professional, mentally prepared to die for standing up and doing the right thing. And that in turn, takes alot of education, kind of spirituality and firm believes. Something very few people have.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by drEaPer

Please dont close a thread that turns so interesting and philosophical!

It doesnt happen very often that people discuss such things, in an apropriate manner, and I am really positively suprised about the ppl participating.
We raise fundamental problems of war, its ethnics and justifcations.
Discussing can only open eyes. Of course, only, as long as its in an apropriate manner.


Lets keep the standard I know from subsim, and lets show that we can also politely debate sensitive topics here.

I agree. It would be better to issue warnings and if deemed further necessary restrict posting rights for a day or week upon those who resort to personal attacks/threats. That would then not deny the majority here a right to continue the discussion/debate on the issues in question.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Wait, and picking up on something Dowly had noted before - so, because my great-grandfather fought against Finland - which Finns see as criminal - am I supposed to be ashamed of him and not go and put flowers on his grave?

Awww, dont say that! Russians were no criminals. We Finns just are upset to the fact that we defended our country succesfully, but still we had to give Russia the land they asked before the war.

Oh and Iceman, remember the fact that Nazis didnt advertise their deathcamps. So, it´s possible that most of the soldiers didnt even know there was such things. All they heard was rumors.

And I`m pretty sure that the Uboat men were the ones that didnt get much news. As they were on the sea most of the time.

How can you blame Erich Topp for the murders of what the SS and others did? Shame on you.

And what are you trying to proof with that "Reuben James" thing?? It was full of "hard fighting men" (=soldiers). Lets see, if you had the change to sink ship full of terrorists coming towards America intending to start a war, would you sink it? I think you would.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Iceman

CCIP The Day my country sends hundreds of thousands of people to death camps then yea...I will be the first to fight against this...ya gotta grow a backbone or be a jellyfish and squirm away with your life such as it will be and live with yourself.

My self I will take a stand and say what is right...he didn't have a choice?...yea he did...they all did.

Death before Dishonor.....Stand up for what's right...even unto Death.I know it is hard...it is always hard to do the right thing or even know but ya can't give into the jelly.
I won't disturb your thread anymore like my homage to the fallen of Dec 7 was any longer.

Heil whoever you want.

From your comments Iceman would you then agree with this kind of viewpoint?

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

... if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal, save Hitler who sent boys to do what may well be below a demon.

This was from the Holocaust thread http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=43478

Were these people 'spineless cowards' who should have chosen death? Did everyone have a real choice as you said?

[Iceman]

Dead Mans Hand wrote:
... if you whish to speak of the true filth that worked with the Nazi's you should remember the Jews who worked with the Nazi's to save their own skins. They were the truest cowards of the whole ordeal, save Hitler who sent boys to do what may well be below a demon.

Konovalov...those are the worst kind.They were like a guy named Judas from a long time ago.

Death before Dishonor.

I can't believe this forum is filled with so many self preserving cowards as you all seem.

I guess thats the moment of truth huh?I also forget myself and to whom I speak and I apologize....The faith I hold teaches Death is only a "Thing" that each individual must go thru and not to be feared....I am pretty sure Islam and the Jewish faith teaches the same thing.

Death is the moment of truth....will ya run from it?


Matthew 10
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
[39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
[40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Maybe the Christian faith so many balk at really is'nt the flowery la la happy go lucky bunch of people so many of you laugh at.

It is only for the faithful, not the fearful and unbelieving.

So whan a man like Erich Topp is praised like you all have done here to me it is like laying a blessing on a demon.And I must speak...I don't fear your reprisals or care what you think of me personally I have to answer to a higher authority some day and will be asked about each moment of my life and how I spent it.

Who was Erich Topp?....to me he was a killer who sent many good men to there grave.Why so surpirsed?...Am I the only one here to stand up to speak about what is right?Such is the way of this world.Is it "Cool" that this guy was consulted about the making of a video game?....Cool.

I have to disagree by agreeing, Iceman. Eric Topp was a killer...but he was no murderer. If he was as bad as you say, then you must also include Mush Morton and Dick O'Kane on the list. Or was American 'Unrestricted Submarine Warfare' somehow nicer than German 'Unrestricted Submarine Warfare'? Or was Topp a villain because he fough for the 'wrong' side? Like most soldiers and sailors everywhere, he did his duty as he saw it and most likely believed in his cause-not Hitler's cause, but that of fighting for his homeland.

Buffy Ste. Marie wrote the words, and Donavan made them famous:

He's five foot two, and he's six feet four,
And he fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen;
He's been a soldier for a thousand years.

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, and Athiest, a Jane,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew;
And he knows he shouldn't kill and he knows he always will
Kill you for me, my friend, he'll kill me for you.

He's Fighting for Canada, he's fighting for France
And he's fighting for the U.S.A.
He's fighting for the Russians and he's fighting for Japan,
And he think's he'll put an end to war this way.

He's fighting for Democracy, he's fighting for the Reds,
And he says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him how could Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
And without him Ceasar would have stood alone.
He's the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
But his orders come from far away no more;
They come from here and there, and you and me, and brother can't you see
This is not the way we put an end to war?

'The Universal Soldier'-Buffy Ste. Marie

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Who was Erich Topp?....to me he was a killer who sent many good men to there grave.Why so surpirsed?...Am I the only one here to stand up to speak about what is right?Such is the way of this world.Is it "Cool" that this guy was consulted about the making of a video game?....Cool.

If you think that way, then US troops where killers too, and everyone who participated to the war. Why would the men Topp killed, be any better than Topp? They were all soldiers, fighting and dying for their country.

For example, have you forgotten Dresden?? Hiroshima?? Nagasaki?? Vietnam?? Stalin, who was with the allies killed alot more civilians than Germany did.

I`m not trying to glorify what Germany did in WW2, and no one should. But, dont act like an a-hole and make everyone who fought along side Germany, guilty to the holocaust.

Oh and before you say that Germany started the war without reason, I give you one word: IRAQ. Your country´s "oh-so-wise" leader has admitted, that the intelligence MIGHT (read: It was wrong, we just want the oil) have been wrong about the chemical weapons and stuff.

Sorry, if I made you other americans upset. No pun intended, just my thoughs.

[Marhkimov]

Nope: it's true. The Americans ARE a-holes. No doubt about it.

Just take me for example...



@ Iceman

We're not trying to glorify anyone here. Killing is wrong, and I think we all agree with that. But you really do seem like a very religious person... So I'm wondering why you aren't able to forgive Erich Topp? I'm no Christian, but doesn't the bible teach anything about forgiveness? What about "love thy enemy?"

It would make everyone happy (including yourself) if we just forgive Erich Topp and the German nation for their crimes against humanity and put it behind us. Unless you somehow believe that US soldiers in Iraq are also murderers... In which case you need to understand that American soldiers are simply doing the job of a deeply misguided nation....

[drEaPer]

@Iceman your view is pretty religions. It cannot be shared by ppl who dont believe in something after death. Take me for example: For me death means ultimate nothing. A state of non existence. I dont believe in a supernatural power nor do I believe that morals and ethnics teached on our planet can be "right" or "wrong". They just "are".
People like me are having a hard time with the way you explain things.
To me its education, childhood etc that makes a human, that defines what he/she thinks is good and evil. Your enviroment is shaping you through your life, eventually creating a personality. If you get raised by violent parents, teaching you to take what you want and use force if necessary, you will be most likely become an *******. If you are successful by doing so, there will be no need for you to change.
Of course, if you are religious, you see those things totally different.
But for me, death is something to be avoided at all cost. I dont care if I get called a coward or not, because being called a coward and being alive is something I prefer over beind dead and having no way to make any use of it (since I am well, non existent anymore).

It looks to me as if most of the posts are aimed at Iceman now. However it's an interesting read but WAY WAY WAY off the original topic. Maybe someone should start another thread and let the men continue their battle. Regardless, let Kapitain Erich Topp rest in peace and start another thread to carry this on.

[bradclark1]

Watch out with the name calling Iceman you might find yourself barred.

[Hottentot]

Some times I find it amusing that certain people have an urge to hate someone. It doesn't even always matter who they hate, they just want to hate for hating's sake. Then again, I also find it pretty scary.
And being a christian myself, it is disturbing that many of these people seem to share my religion. As has been asked before in the thread: what happened to that "love thy enemy" part?

This thread originally was about Erich Topp's death. I'm not sure if he would be very proud of it now, if he was able to read it. To say that he was a killer is to tell the truth. His torpedoes killed people, so he was a killer, right? Just as every average guy in any army was, because his bullets/bombs/hamsters happened to kill people. It is, how should I say, kind of inevitable in a war.
But to say that he was a cold blooded murderer sounds pretty stupid to me. I am, of course, ready to change my opinion as soon as someone shows me an account of Topp personally telling how he enjoyed every death he caused. But as long as I'm not aware of that kind of document, I will respect him as a soldier who did his duty.

[Abraham]

Welcome aboard, Hottentot!