For those of you who think the XXI Sucks..... - Page 6

Jungman · 07-21-05, 03:44 PM

Syxx_Killer

Quote:

I have run on the surface for long periods of time without seeing ANY planes. When I submerge and start to snorkel the planes show up like clockwork. It is like the probability of encountering planes while snorkeling has been raised. Is there such a value in the game files?

If running on the SURFACE does not attract planes as much compared to running UNDERWATER with Snorkel raised...then the radar nerf will not work.

I will either have to set Minimum radar Height from zero to say 0.5m to 2.5m for the different enemy active radars. This is different from changing MinSurface size for detection.

Or the Surface Size for the Snorkel is too big. I will look into the Snorkel.dat value and see what it is. It could be the size much bigger than your sub and thus it will attract fast airplanes like bone to the dog.

wabos43 · 07-21-05, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungman

Did you try the first beta of the Snorkel_Radar fix for radar? I nerfed the values, but do not know if they are good enough nerfed.

It changed the MinSurface values so not as good. I may have to change the MinHeigth values instead if it is not working. MinHeight is set for zero. I would set it for 0.5m to 2.5m for the different enemy active radars. this needs alot of beta testing. I spent a month finding values for the Super Sonar that worked well.

The radar detectors ranges in the game are not very good. Here they are from the Sensors.dat file.

One moment to cut and paste here.

Main ones I found so far. They are all the same except for thier maximum detection range. Sweep period 15 (seconds?). Height 15000m. Min MaxSurface 1m to 25000m.

MaxRange for Radar Warning Dectectors:

Metox = 4 km
Borkum = 5 km
Naxos = 7.5 km
Tunis = 10 km

As you see, the enemy airplanes and DD will see you long before you will ever pick them up. Plus a sweep period of 15 seconds is along time for an airplane attacking you (may never see it coming unless the Probability to Detect is increased).

I tried your modified file and found planes pick up the snorkel even when I use it from periscope depth, also I had the anti radar coating so it should be even harder to find.

Its interesting about the radar warning sensors you've found. The values are wrong as modelled, giving no time to submerge against oncoming aircraft. If you see my last post the values should be:

Metox: 8 km for ASV I and ASV II radar but not able to detect ASV III and above
Borkum: 20 km capable of detecting ASV III and above
Naxos: 40 km capable of detecting ASV III and above
Tunis: 60 km capable of detecting all ASV models

The above comes from "Type VII: Uboats" by Robert Stern and THE U-BOAT: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines
by Eberhard Rossler, so I think the above figures are pretty accurate. Judging by other literature, if the U Boat had the necessary equipment to detect the emissions then there was sufficient time to submerge. Which currently isn't working in the current model. I dont really know how to change these values, but concerning the snorkel problems being detected it seems to me that at the same time the RWR systems need to be changed also.

Jungman · 07-21-05, 04:51 PM

Quote:

I tried your modified file and found planes pick up the snorkel even when I use it from periscope depth, also I had the anti radar coating so it should be even harder to find.

It is easy enough to change the range on the Radar Warning detectors, if the game models out that far, I think max is 25 km for any sensor parameter. So I can boost them in proportion should help alot if on the surface to give time to dive.

Can you tell me what Month and Year, and airplane if you remember, so I can tell what ASV Mark radar was being used against you?

I only guess at a value that may work. The last year war .03m radar I changed to 0.3m which means your snorkel will have to be barely above the water. Using the Noise Meter is a good way to see if they are detecting you. Myabe increase this to 0.6m.... :hmm:

I have other tricks to try out too. This is still very beta tesing. ALOT of testing.

wabos43 · 07-21-05, 05:09 PM

Well it was January 1944 and there were two attacks the first was by a Wellington and then two Avengers arrived on the scene as well. This was in the North Sea slightly before nightfall. :hmm:

Jungman · 07-21-05, 05:38 PM

Wellington has a bug in it. It has the radar Mark III until end date of June 1, 1944. Then nothing. The Wellingtons radar drops off until end of the war after that date. There should be another radar set to upgrade ASVMark something better than MarkIII until wars end of December 31, 1945. At least let change the date to wars end.

Means alot of Wellingtons are flying around after June 1, 1944 to war end with NO radar specified. Unless the Wellington is removed from the game after that date.

[Sensor 3]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=ASVMarkIII
StartDate=19430601
EndDate=19440601

Avengers have NO radar!!

[Sensor 4]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

So in Jan 1944 only Wellington will have radar ASVMarkIII, while the Avengers NEVER have radar

.

Th ASVMark III default game value is 12 km range at 0.3m MinSurface. I moded that from 0.3m to 1.5m.

The Wellington will spot your snorkel if it is stick more than 1.5 meters high above water surface. At periscope depth, I had to go about 1 meter lower to get the snort below that mark and not get detected. Waves play into this too, hiding you but also shutting off snorkel on/off.

The Avengers have NO radar so they cannot see you using your snorkel except by Visual sensor (Mark I Eyeball

)

If you were stopped in the water, underwater, you should be able to snorkel with no problem.

I am suspecting the surface area defined for the snorkel is too big in its dat file. The Periscope does not get detected so easily.

wabos43 · 07-21-05, 06:02 PM

Yes its was a twilight so in theory it was a visual sightings. I'll try snorkeling in the middle of the night and see what happens. If anyone attacks then it can only be from radar fix.

wabos43 · 07-21-05, 06:55 PM

OK just tried a new scenario, this time November 1944 with a Type XXI boat. I started snorkeling from periscope depth in the North Sea in the middle of the night, I was unmolested by aircraft for the entire night. This was in wind speed 6 seas, I'm not sure how well you could run the snorkel in higher wind speeds though. I found in calm sea you can still make the snorkel work from 17 m depth, it just skims the surface.

Clearly the first time they were eyeballing me. BTW I should say I'm using the airpower mod, so I don't know if the radar is still faulty in the Wellington.

Well with this change and if the radar detectors can be set to historical limits it would seem that the survivability issues can be much improved. Let me know if you need any more info for the radar detectors Jungman

Syxx_Killer · 07-23-05, 05:35 PM

Has there been any progress regarding the issues mentioned in this thread?

Jungman · 07-23-05, 09:22 PM

Yes. I just did a major test to fix the Snorkel / airplane spotting problem.

The mod listed for the Snorkel_Radar fix will help from hiding from radar. But listen to this.

I made the enemy Visual range to zero to get it out of the way. The Snorkel is not detected at all April 1943 by several radars, A Flower Corvette type 286 had a range of 3 km at 1.5m MinSurface modded to 2.5m. You extend the Snorkel completly high up.

Also Catilina airplanes using the ASVMark I radar set for that 2.5m never picks you up with radar.

Nor the aircraft carrier using SP radar set for 0.3m modded to 1.5m.

The problem is that the Snorkel VISUAL size is Huge!

It is not radar that is causing the problem per say.

If you are cruising with snorkel underwater, the airplanes sees the Snorkel Visual area as extremely big. And they attack from far away. It is not the radar.

I am going to put the original values for radar back in with the Visual enemy AI set to zero to shut it off, and test the default values to pick up the Snorkel, to see if changing the radar signature has any real effect.

Unfortunatley, I cannot find the data for the Snorkel VISUAL surface area to lower it to something a bit bigger than the periscope size. As it is now, the game thinks the Snorkel is as big as your submarine.!!

You can only use it if you barely have it above the water.

Unless I can find the Visual data for the Snorkel, So far no luck at all, only a 'reduction' of MinHeight to Visual sensor in the AI_Sensors.dat file from zero to say 1.5m will let you snorkel better without being seen. Of course your scope is even more invisible. This is not the greatest solution for this problem.

It would make you periscope and snorkel invisible below 1.5m and maybe you could go flank speed and the ship will never see you. I need to test this in game and see what happens, if this could be used as a viable fix. Least I fix one thing, and breaks another part of gameplay mechanics.

Jungman · 07-24-05, 12:19 AM

I used the original AI_Sensor.dat file and stock radar values.

It seems to make no difference. Testing with the Visual set for zero range (blind airplanes and DD), the snorkel will not be detected by radar. At least the 0.3m band. The 0.03m radar maybe a different story....

It does seem it is the "Visual Size" of the snorkel is too big. Anyone know where this is stored? I never found it.

Sorry to highjack this thread...I am going to create a new thread with all the new findings summary.

tycho102 · 07-24-05, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungman

I used the original AI_Sensor.dat file and stock radar values.

It seems to make no difference. Testing with the Visual set for zero range (blind airplanes and DD), the snorkel will not be detected by radar. At least the 0.3m band. The 0.03m radar maybe a different story....

It does seem it is the "Visual Size" of the snorkel is too big. Anyone know where this is stored? I never found it.

Sorry to highjack this thread...I am going to create a new thread with all the new findings summary.

Oh no. You didn't hijack the thread, at all. You just found the base-cause for the entire mess. If the surface area of the snorkel really is massive (as it would seem), then that's the only thing that needs to be changed. The area will be quite a bit larger than just a typical periscope, though, especially with the later models. I imagine the flat surfaces and the enormous head really put out strong returns, over just an ordinary periscope. I'd imagine nothing over 15m^2, with a periscope giving 6-7.

Syxx_Killer · 07-24-05, 09:55 AM

Thanks for all the work Jungman! It doesn't surprise me that the snorkel would appear as huge to the aircraft. I'm looking around different files in the folder, but I don't know if I will find anything. I'm not sure what I am really looking for, but I'd love to help out someway.

Jungman · 07-24-05, 04:43 PM

Ok then it is good to speak here. I am testing with special hack files which shut off the enemy AI radar, visual, and sonars.

This helps me track it down. The airplanes have less visual time to see you Uboat flying so fast, the detect time is 15 seconds for a sweep.

It is almost a combination problem.

The airplanes are high up in air and do not suffer visual clutter as the DD do flat on the ocean.

But the opposite is true for the Radar. The DD are in detection range longer...vice versa for airplanes.

I think maybe the best way to go is maybe a small tweak to the Visual MinHeight from zero to maybe 0.5m. Or a tweak to the Surface detect from zero to a small value.

Plus a small nerf to the radar MinSurfaces. I tell you, the interplay of all this together is a most difficult task to balance out just right.
Change one value to help airplanes ruins DD, help the snorkel againts DD hurts airplanes too much.

Unless I can find where the surface data is stored for Snorkel and Periscope against radar and visual, then all I can do is a small tweak. It will not be most ideal...but generally it should stop super spotting using the snorkel most of the time, not always.

Another thing, the snorkel depth in a type VIIC boat is default 10m depth and in 5 m/s waves the boat itself is being seen in whole. When using the snorkel manually set your snorkel to just enough to break the waves and work. That helps alot, and needs to be done with this Mod. I use depth 11m with waves at 5 m/s.

That is not so bad considering how much trouble the real Uboat captains had with the snorkel in big waves and being spotted on the surface between radar/visual from 'airplane and DD combo'.

Update:
Just one last thought, maybe use the airplanes speed and time over target against itself. I could increase the time for a Visual detect. It will not affect you attack against merchant and Destroyer ships since you will spend all long time mostly compared to seconds or a few minutes for airplanes.

Thus a change to Visual detect time will hurt the airplanes much greater than Ships spotting you.

wabos43 · 07-25-05, 02:20 AM

Jungman is it going to be possible to change the Radar warning detectors to the proper specifications, like we previously discussed?

Jungman · 07-25-05, 09:30 AM

I think they should be increased, in proportion to the game's world limit of 25 km.

The enemy ship radar has a long range beyond visual, and just for game sake, the Uboats really could detect those strong signals from far away also. (though many captains thought the RD were putting off signals that the allies were picking up and never used them)

What happens in game if you are using TC to speed things up, the airplane especially with 15 km radar will pick you up and you are dead with a dozen airplanes on you. With a more functional decent range on the radar warning, it should alert you there are airplanes in the vicinity.

This may help people to get ready for an airstrike, and/or stop and dive to periscope.

This is very doable and I can give you a modified file Sensors.dat to test with. Tell me if you want to try it out. It may solve alot of problems with airplanes TC to hide faster.

The snorkel running under water being picked up so easy is still a problem I am trying to work around with a small nerf to either radar or visual parameters, without breaking the ability for DD and Ships to see your periscope sneaking in on them. It will work, just a heck alot of paly balance to get it just right without noticeable detriment to gameplay.

07-25-05, 02:20 AM	#14
wabos43 Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 20 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Jungman is it going to be possible to change the Radar warning detectors to the proper specifications, like we previously discussed? __________________

07-21-05, 05:09 PM	#4
wabos43 Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 20 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well it was January 1944 and there were two attacks the first was by a Wellington and then two Avengers arrived on the scene as well. This was in the North Sea slightly before nightfall. :hmm:

07-21-05, 05:38 PM	#5
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Wellington has a bug in it. It has the radar Mark III until end date of June 1, 1944. Then nothing. The Wellingtons radar drops off until end of the war after that date. There should be another radar set to upgrade ASVMark something better than MarkIII until wars end of December 31, 1945. At least let change the date to wars end. Means alot of Wellingtons are flying around after June 1, 1944 to war end with NO radar specified. Unless the Wellington is removed from the game after that date. [Sensor 3] NodeName=R01 LinkName=ASVMarkIII StartDate=19430601 EndDate=19440601 Avengers have NO radar!! [Sensor 4] NodeName=R01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 So in Jan 1944 only Wellington will have radar ASVMarkIII, while the Avengers NEVER have radar . Th ASVMark III default game value is 12 km range at 0.3m MinSurface. I moded that from 0.3m to 1.5m. The Wellington will spot your snorkel if it is stick more than 1.5 meters high above water surface. At periscope depth, I had to go about 1 meter lower to get the snort below that mark and not get detected. Waves play into this too, hiding you but also shutting off snorkel on/off. The Avengers have NO radar so they cannot see you using your snorkel except by Visual sensor (Mark I Eyeball ) If you were stopped in the water, underwater, you should be able to snorkel with no problem. I am suspecting the surface area defined for the snorkel is too big in its dat file. The Periscope does not get detected so easily.

07-21-05, 06:02 PM	#6
wabos43 Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 20 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes its was a twilight so in theory it was a visual sightings. I'll try snorkeling in the middle of the night and see what happens. If anyone attacks then it can only be from radar fix.

07-21-05, 06:55 PM	#7
wabos43 Watch Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 20 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	OK just tried a new scenario, this time November 1944 with a Type XXI boat. I started snorkeling from periscope depth in the North Sea in the middle of the night, I was unmolested by aircraft for the entire night. This was in wind speed 6 seas, I'm not sure how well you could run the snorkel in higher wind speeds though. I found in calm sea you can still make the snorkel work from 17 m depth, it just skims the surface. Clearly the first time they were eyeballing me. BTW I should say I'm using the airpower mod, so I don't know if the radar is still faulty in the Wellington. Well with this change and if the radar detectors can be set to historical limits it would seem that the survivability issues can be much improved. Let me know if you need any more info for the radar detectors Jungman

07-23-05, 05:35 PM	#8
Syxx_Killer Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 2,387 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Has there been any progress regarding the issues mentioned in this thread?

07-23-05, 09:22 PM	#9
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes. I just did a major test to fix the Snorkel / airplane spotting problem. The mod listed for the Snorkel_Radar fix will help from hiding from radar. But listen to this. I made the enemy Visual range to zero to get it out of the way. The Snorkel is not detected at all April 1943 by several radars, A Flower Corvette type 286 had a range of 3 km at 1.5m MinSurface modded to 2.5m. You extend the Snorkel completly high up. Also Catilina airplanes using the ASVMark I radar set for that 2.5m never picks you up with radar. Nor the aircraft carrier using SP radar set for 0.3m modded to 1.5m. The problem is that the Snorkel VISUAL size is Huge! It is not radar that is causing the problem per say. If you are cruising with snorkel underwater, the airplanes sees the Snorkel Visual area as extremely big. And they attack from far away. It is not the radar. I am going to put the original values for radar back in with the Visual enemy AI set to zero to shut it off, and test the default values to pick up the Snorkel, to see if changing the radar signature has any real effect. Unfortunatley, I cannot find the data for the Snorkel VISUAL surface area to lower it to something a bit bigger than the periscope size. As it is now, the game thinks the Snorkel is as big as your submarine.!! You can only use it if you barely have it above the water. Unless I can find the Visual data for the Snorkel, So far no luck at all, only a 'reduction' of MinHeight to Visual sensor in the AI_Sensors.dat file from zero to say 1.5m will let you snorkel better without being seen. Of course your scope is even more invisible. This is not the greatest solution for this problem. It would make you periscope and snorkel invisible below 1.5m and maybe you could go flank speed and the ship will never see you. I need to test this in game and see what happens, if this could be used as a viable fix. Least I fix one thing, and breaks another part of gameplay mechanics.

07-24-05, 12:19 AM	#10
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I used the original AI_Sensor.dat file and stock radar values. It seems to make no difference. Testing with the Visual set for zero range (blind airplanes and DD), the snorkel will not be detected by radar. At least the 0.3m band. The 0.03m radar maybe a different story.... It does seem it is the "Visual Size" of the snorkel is too big. Anyone know where this is stored? I never found it. Sorry to highjack this thread...I am going to create a new thread with all the new findings summary.

07-24-05, 09:55 AM	#12
Syxx_Killer Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 2,387 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Thanks for all the work Jungman! It doesn't surprise me that the snorkel would appear as huge to the aircraft. I'm looking around different files in the folder, but I don't know if I will find anything. I'm not sure what I am really looking for, but I'd love to help out someway.

07-24-05, 04:43 PM	#13
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ok then it is good to speak here. I am testing with special hack files which shut off the enemy AI radar, visual, and sonars. This helps me track it down. The airplanes have less visual time to see you Uboat flying so fast, the detect time is 15 seconds for a sweep. It is almost a combination problem. The airplanes are high up in air and do not suffer visual clutter as the DD do flat on the ocean. But the opposite is true for the Radar. The DD are in detection range longer...vice versa for airplanes. I think maybe the best way to go is maybe a small tweak to the Visual MinHeight from zero to maybe 0.5m. Or a tweak to the Surface detect from zero to a small value. Plus a small nerf to the radar MinSurfaces. I tell you, the interplay of all this together is a most difficult task to balance out just right. Change one value to help airplanes ruins DD, help the snorkel againts DD hurts airplanes too much. Unless I can find where the surface data is stored for Snorkel and Periscope against radar and visual, then all I can do is a small tweak. It will not be most ideal...but generally it should stop super spotting using the snorkel most of the time, not always. Another thing, the snorkel depth in a type VIIC boat is default 10m depth and in 5 m/s waves the boat itself is being seen in whole. When using the snorkel manually set your snorkel to just enough to break the waves and work. That helps alot, and needs to be done with this Mod. I use depth 11m with waves at 5 m/s. That is not so bad considering how much trouble the real Uboat captains had with the snorkel in big waves and being spotted on the surface between radar/visual from 'airplane and DD combo'. Update: Just one last thought, maybe use the airplanes speed and time over target against itself. I could increase the time for a Visual detect. It will not affect you attack against merchant and Destroyer ships since you will spend all long time mostly compared to seconds or a few minutes for airplanes. Thus a change to Visual detect time will hurt the airplanes much greater than Ships spotting you.

07-25-05, 09:30 AM	#15
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think they should be increased, in proportion to the game's world limit of 25 km. The enemy ship radar has a long range beyond visual, and just for game sake, the Uboats really could detect those strong signals from far away also. (though many captains thought the RD were putting off signals that the allies were picking up and never used them) What happens in game if you are using TC to speed things up, the airplane especially with 15 km radar will pick you up and you are dead with a dozen airplanes on you. With a more functional decent range on the radar warning, it should alert you there are airplanes in the vicinity. This may help people to get ready for an airstrike, and/or stop and dive to periscope. This is very doable and I can give you a modified file Sensors.dat to test with. Tell me if you want to try it out. It may solve alot of problems with airplanes TC to hide faster. The snorkel running under water being picked up so easy is still a problem I am trying to work around with a small nerf to either radar or visual parameters, without breaking the ability for DD and Ships to see your periscope sneaking in on them. It will work, just a heck alot of paly balance to get it just right without noticeable detriment to gameplay.