Did you know a 3rd WTC Tower Fell on 9/11/2001 ?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The problem there is, what do you do? Lock the thread immediately? If so, does that mean the Original Poster should be considered a troll? If the thread is worth locking, should he also be brigged outright? Considered for a keelhauling?

Or lock the thread but leave the OP alone on the assumption he just saw something he thought was funny and didn't think about the consequences?

When does it reach the point where some subjects become absolutely forbidden? It has been suggested in the past that GT be closed altogether. One of the objections was that then people would bring their nonsense to other forums. The two counters to that were that people already troll those forums anyway, and if anyone brings up anything not related to that forum they would be immediately squashed. Of course the problem there is that GT is the biggest forum Subsim has, and if it were shut down a large part of the membership would be gone.

I don't know the answers to any of those questions, and the last I heard neither does anybody else, including Neal. So it gets played by ear a lot, and everybody has a different opinion on it, including me. It's never easy.

That is the Catch-22. I'd suggest a council of people to judge whether a topic is aimed for trolling but that would probably just slow down the response time and give a chance for the fire to kindle.
It's tricky, that's why I don't like to bring these things up because I know that you guys are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I guess that the only thing to do for people who don't like how GT has become is just not to go to GT.

[Feuer Frei!]

Well, my thought is why, when a thread like this appears, give in to the baiting and even post in it at all?
I know it's easier said than done because some folks can't help themselves and take the bait. Regardless of what's thrown at them.
It's like they have an obligation to address a thread like this in the hope that they can disprove or prove what the OP is posting.

Mission accomplished i say by the OP, with 75 posts in this count so far.

It will give the trolls fresh hope indeed.

Whether you address the OP's original claims, or merely post in it to spam OT stuff, it's all the same.
It bumps the thread to the top, giving it exposure.

New people arrive, post in it, and so it goes on.

If no-one posted in something like this, the thread would disappear very very fast off the first page and into oblivion.

My 1.0001 cents' worth.

If no-one posted in something like this, the thread would disappear very very fast off the first page and into oblivion.

I agree, I think people who post in this topic and keep it alive have a lot to answer for.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Oberon

That is the Catch-22. I'd suggest a council of people to judge whether a topic is aimed for trolling but that would probably just slow down the response time and give a chance for the fire to kindle.

There is such a council. They're called 'Moderators', and it has been discussed.

I guess that the only thing to do for people who don't like how GT has become is just not to go to GT.

I've said many times before that GT hasn't "become" anything. It's always been like this, and anyone who says otherwise has a selective memory.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Well, my thought is why, when a thread like this appears, give in to the baiting and even post in it at all?

Some people don't know it's baiting. Some (including me) don't care. In this case I consider it to be reverse baiting. I'm not arguing with him, I'm just asking him to show that he has anything at all. Yes, I've also suggested ignoring people as a solution, but there are different kinds of trolls. Some post nonsense and can't see they're doing it. Some post nonsense deliberately just to see what will happen Some are very good at baiting others and get away with it fairly consistently. The hard part is deciphering which is which. I know that this one will always say exactly the same thing, over and over again, and never change his tune by even one note. I would gladly let him go, but as I've said I'm having fun. Does that make me a troll as well? I don't know.

It will give the trolls fresh hope indeed.

The real trolls - the ones who pick a fight and then when they have no real argument try to change the tune entirely, finally turning to personal attacks, reveal themselves fairly quickly - get banned for life, then come back with a new name and try again. And get banned again. This guy isn't one of them.

If no-one posted in something like this, the thread would disappear very very fast off the first page and into oblivion.

Very true, but it also raises the obvious question: If you know your arguments won't be heard or make any difference, why are you posting here?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I agree, I think people who post in this topic and keep it alive have a lot to answer for.

Subtle. Seriously, so subtle I had to read it three times before I got it.

Subtle. Seriously, so subtle I had to read it three times before I got it.

Should I make another post to repeat the point more clearly?

[Sailor Steve]

No. That said, if I had gotten it the first time I might not have been so long-winded.

[Feuer Frei!]

Please understand i'm not attacking you with the replies, Steve. Read it with an open mind.
I respect you and certainly wouldn't want you to think that i don't like you.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Some people don't know it's baiting.

Well, i think the topic would send out a clear message that the thread has been created for exactly that reason. Us more 'intelligent' folks would see it a mile away and steer clear from responding. Or sitting back and watching the entertainment.
However, i think it's also important to realize when to lock a thread or not post in it purely for the entertainment value.
I understand it's a double-edged sword. Do you lock it immediately you smell troll? Do you send out a message to the forum members that there is absolutely no freedom of speech and that as soon as you post something, undeniably and unintentionally wanting to troll but to perhaps just invite mature and sensible discussion, that the thread will get locked and people get disgruntled and won't post anymore? I think that's not right either.
But when it's a clear case of trolling and deliberately inviting the reactions of forum members with rather tasteless material, and 9\11 is tasteless, in the way it was raised in this thread, then someone needs to take a hard line and either lock it or advise from the word go, ie. second or 3rd post that to invite further discussions, if you want to call it that, in this thread, will not be a positive thing.

Some (including me) don't care.

I understand that, i don't care either. However other members may. And to let this go on, if you were, is that productive? Good and healthy for the forum folks?

I'm not arguing with him, I'm just asking him to show that he has anything at all.

Of course he doesn't have anything other than linked pictures to conspiracy sites or copy-pasta'd regurgitated material, for want of a better word, with absolutely nothing new to add. If you can infact add anything at all to something like this, which hasn't been theorized many many times before.
That's what trolls do. Regurgitate copied material, amongst other things.

Yes, I've also suggested ignoring people as a solution, but there are different kinds of trolls. Some post nonsense and can't see they're doing it. Some post nonsense deliberately just to see what will happen Some are very good at baiting others and get away with it fairly consistently.

All understandable. However in combating that, perhaps the 'guidelines' need to be re-written, which includes sensitive material being used to open up threads in a manner which could only suggest trolling is at work.
The way in which a topic is created gives a big insight into what is to follow, what its motive is and sure, let it go for a page and see where it ends up. Then act.

The hard part is deciphering which is which.

Perhaps, but as i said above, you get to see very quickly what the motive of a thread having been posted is. What is the purpose of the creation of said thread? Is it to rile feathers? Is it to spout conspiracy theories left right and centre, all the while achieveing absolutely nothing towards the GT section and to the wider forum members? Is it to deliberately insite arguements? Is it to innocently spout as-yet unproven theories of an event or occurrance which is sensitive to a lot of people and may not insite arguements or further trolling in said thread?
I think once again it goes back to re-defining the 'guidelines' and posting a clear picture of what is acceptabe subject material and what is not.
The crux of it all is, as you think, is how a person uses subject material to make a point. How a person raises a subject matter in the forums. How to distinguish a poster who has clear intentions to insite arguements and disagreements purely for their own entertainment. Or a distinguishing a poster who posts, also, like the proven or obvious troll, sensitive subject matter, but making mature, calculated and above all, diplomatic and educated contributions in creating a thread. I think the two could and would and should be fairly easily distinguishable.

I know that this one will always say exactly the same thing, over and over again, and never change his tune by even one note.

Well, if that's a well-known fact, then why cater to that repeated, tired old posting of his then?

I would gladly let him go, but as I've said I'm having fun.

Indeed, and there is nothing wrong with you having fun. I certainly don't have an issue with you having fun Steve. However, the wider community needs to be taken into consideration. Are we having fun? Sure, it's entertaining, sitting back and seeing if the OP comes up with anything ground-breaking, new or unheard of before. Or changes his tact mid-way through his thread and actually realises what garbage he or she is posting and disapperas into the deep halls of trolldom, whence he came from. And with that, let the wider community get on with posting more constructive discussion points. The GT section is just that. General Topics. I totally get that. It contains all sorts of topic matters, ranging from humour, politics, religion, non-fiction, fiction, real-life experiences, current affairs, garbage, troll material, ah heck, all sorts of stuff.
And modewrating this part of Subsim would not be an enviable task. I take that onboard. I really do.
But that's not the issue here. Whether it's an enviable task or not.
The issue here is whether to constructively and clinically shut down an obvious troll post or not.

Does that make me a troll as well? I don't know.

I don't think it does.
Nor does it make me a troll by posting here, either in reply to you or further back, when i posted in answer to some of Oberons' suggestions or queries and your own in how to possibly deal with trolls.
Addressing mature and decent discussion points in a troll thread doesn't make one a troll.
However, posting similar garbage as the OP, continuing his relentless drive in attempting to disrupt a lively but in general very good General Thread section...well. (not you)

but it also raises the obvious question: If you know your arguments won't be heard or make any difference, why are you posting here?

Who says that my arguments won't be heard? Or ring a sound somewhere here with mods? Or Neal?
I never assumed before posting my previous comment in relation to how to deal with forum trolls should be used a would-be end-all guide for this forum.
I posted it purely with my opinion, in the hope that others would read it and perhaps make sense of it and possibly refrain from feeding the troll any further.

Continuously feeding the troll with rebuttals, educated or not, spammed or not, will not fix it.

Posting a sensible remark, grounded and mature (or so i believe) and not addressing any of his 'subject matter', may help.

My motif was clear, sincere and innocent.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Please understand i'm not attacking you with the replies, Steve. Read it with an open mind.

After reading it I can honestly say that you needn't worry about that.

I understand it's a double-edged sword. Do you lock it immediately you smell troll?

Not a problem for me, as I'm not a moderator on this forum and thus can't lock threads here. I could have brigged him right away, but that raises exactly the same problems you addressed with the idea of locking the thread.

That's what trolls do. Regurgitate copied material, amongst other things. All understandable. However in combating that, perhaps the 'guidelines' need to be re-written, which includes sensitive material being used to open up threads in a manner which could only suggest trolling is at work.

There is only one person who can rewrite guidelines, and that is the man who wrote them in the first place. We take our cues from him, and he likes to use a light touch. If you think things should change, he's the one you need to talk to.

I think once again it goes back to re-defining the 'guidelines' and posting a clear picture of what is acceptabe subject material and what is not.

We have guidelines we use. If you want them changed you need to PM Neal Stevens.

The crux of it all is, as you think, is how a person uses subject material to make a point. How a person raises a subject matter in the forums. How to distinguish a poster who has clear intentions to insite arguements and disagreements purely for their own entertainment. Or a distinguishing a poster who posts, also, like the proven or obvious troll, sensitive subject matter, but making mature, calculated and above all, diplomatic and educated contributions in creating a thread. I think the two could and would and should be fairly easily distinguishable.

That's a fair point, but unless the obvious troll has been permanently banned he has as much right to post as anyone else. If we think he's gone too far then he'll know it. Just locking the thread is nice, but if he's broken the rules he also needs to be infracted. Is what he said worthy of infraction? Trust me, I thought about it very carefully before I posted.

However, the wider community needs to be taken into consideration...And with that, let the wider community get on with posting more constructive discussion points.

Is anyone stopping that from happening? Is anyone forcing people to respond to this thread, or any other? Is anyone forcing people to read this thread? If you put the troll on ignore you won't have to read his posts. I'm not dismissing your argument or suggesting you do anything in particular. I'm just adding other options to the mix.

The issue here is whether to constructively and clinically shut down an obvious troll post or not.

But the same problem arises: If he's an obvious troll, why not just get rid of him forever? The answer may seem easy to you, but then where do you draw that line? You can't ban him if he hasn't done anything worth banning for. You can only brig him if he crosses certain lines. We've already discussed one of the guidelines for which he might be brigged. If we don't brig him right off the bat, when do we brig him? If he hasn't been brigged, why should the thread be locked? It's easy to take a hard line. I should know, I sometimes take way too hard a line. It's easy to say what you think should be done. It's not always that easy to do it, and to do it in such a way that you still have a forum people want to come to.

Who says that my arguments won't be heard? Or ring a sound somewhere here with mods? Or Neal?

That wasn't my point. My point was better said in this case by Tribesman. If posting in a thread adds to the mayhem, how is saying that it does any different from any other post? You're still adding to the mayhem, posting in a thread to complain about everybody else posting in the thread.

Continuously feeding the troll with rebuttals, educated or not, spammed or not, will not fix it.

Posting a sensible remark, grounded and mature (or so i believe) and not addressing any of his 'subject matter', may help.

Possibly. On the other hand the ultimate troll thread ever was the 'Subsim Zombies' thread, and the only reason that thread wasn't nominated for 'Thread Of The Year' was that we can't give a "best of" award to a troll so bad he's been keelhauled several times under several different names.

So what you think is obvious is not so much to some others. All we can do is wait and see how it goes.

[Sailor Steve]

On reflection I suppose one possible solution is to lock the thread, leaving the comment "I'm sorry. You're welcome to post here, but not about that."

[Catfish]

Can someone imagine that there are real people with real doubts, and that even if some do not want to hear about those doubts at all anymore, it might not be 'trolling' ?
Is a thread about the NSA, GCHQ, Julian Assange and Mr Snowden also 'trolling' just because a lot of people do not want to hear about it.

To label inconvenient views "trolling" is certainly is a good method to shut up unwanted opinions.
But why all this anticipatory obedience ?

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Can someone imagine that there are real people with real doubts, and that even if some do not want to hear about those doubts at all anymore, it might not be 'trolling' ?
Is a thread about the NSA, GCHQ, Julian Assange and Mr Snowden also 'trolling' just because a lot of people do not want to hear about it.

To label inconvenient views "trolling" is certainly is a good method to shut up unwanted opinions.
But why all this anticipatory obedience ?

Prove me that Santa Claus didn't murder John F. Kennedy. There is lots of evidence saying Santa Claus did it. Have you ever considered that Santa is just a different way to spell Satan? Or why there was so much red on the scene? Prove me Santa didn't do it.

That's why.

[Catfish]

Huh ?
What exactly do you deny ?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Huh ?
What exactly do you deny ?

That is exactly the problem here.

[mapuc]

Please do NOT mock a person just because he or she believes in some kind of conspiracy.

Did you know that about 80-90 % of the earth habitant believe in a certain conspiracy!?

When you know what kind of conspiracy it is, you may not approve it or even be mad, but when considering to what and how conspiracy occur, this conspiracy is nothing more that just conspiracy

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