Unnarmed 17 year old shot dead "in self defence"

[Stealhead]

You ignore the fact that the Florida FDLE is also involved it is highly likely that they are the ones that asked the Feds to get involved.

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You ignore the fact that the Florida FDLE is also involved it is highly likely that they are the ones that asked the Feds to get involved.

I suppose that is possible but I have to wonder why the Feds didn't say that when they announced their investigation.

The Feds jumped the gun and I believe they did so purely for political reasons.

So the purely political reasons wouldn't by any chance be the commisioner and the local mayor both asking them directly ?
Whoda thunk Fox news would carry such nuggets of information eh

[Platapus]

I don't understand why Zimmerman is not arrested and given a chance to plead his case at a trial?

I have not heard of a case where it was closed just because someone said it was self defense. Let's collect the evidence and take it to trial. That's what trials are for.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I don't understand why Zimmerman is not arrested and given a chance to plead his case at a trial?

I have not heard of a case where it was closed just because someone said it was self defense. Let's collect the evidence and take it to trial. That's what trials are for.

That's the real question. Who are the police to determine that there's a case or not against this guy? That's the DA's job.

[Stealhead]

Here in is the problem in FL DAs have taken on virtually no "stand your ground" cases they seem to avoid it like the plague.I suspect this is because of the wording of the law they feel that all but the most strong case is going to be a losing proposition so why take this kind of case when you can take ones that are easier to win like a drug case?DAs have an interest to appear to up hold the law so they want to take cases that they know that they are more likely to get a conviction on.The stand your ground law makes that very unlikely for obvious reasons.

Any case of self defense no matter the circumstances should be very thoroughly investigated by the DA.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by privateer

Surely you jest???
A whole freaking Nation is crying out about this!!
Who do you want to look into things?
Castle?

No, it does not matter that the nation is crying out about this, we do not operate on a system of mob rule.This is a local Law Enforcement matter and they made a decision not to charge him(Law Enforcement Officer's have discretion) based on Florida STATE Law, if they arrest someone when they are legally protected, they open up their department to lawsuits, bad publicity etc.The State Attorney's Office surely looked into this and felt that regardless of his actions, an altercation ensued and he used the force he deemed necessary to protect himself.There is no evidence to show this was racially motivated, every negative interaction between two people of different racial backrounds is NOT always a racial matter, in fact I will argue that it is rarely a racial thing now days. The way many people try to stretch hate crime laws is that if you get into an altercation with a minority or a homoesexual, you committed a hate crime, even if the crime was not motivated by prejudice.Bottom line, the guy is protected under Florida Law so those who have business in the matter, the Sanford Police and State Attorneys Office(they are sending it to a grand jury now) have the call here and the Feds have no reason to step in yet.Evidence surfaces to show that it was a racially motivated crime, Feds should then investigate.I think hate crime laws are silly, no one group should be protected more than others but that is a different discussion.

I am not defending Zimmerman, he is an idiot.Overzealous wannabe cop(must be a real f*ck up to not be able to be an actual cop, it's not that difficult, look at the people who become cops) who went looking for trouble and found it.Some type of altercation occurred and perhaps the kid was kicking his ass , he felt in danger and shot him.Legally, he is covered, it sucks but he is.The stand your ground law was put in place because people who defended themselves were prosecuted when they never should have been.

Governor Scott is calling for a review of the law and that is fine but Zimmerman has the law on his side in this one, like it or not.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Here in is the problem in FL DAs have taken on virtually no "stand your ground" cases they seem to avoid it like the plague.I suspect this is because of the wording of the law they feel that all but the most strong case is going to be a losing proposition so why take this kind of case when you can take ones that are easier to win like a drug case?DAs have an interest to appear to up hold the law so they want to take cases that they know that they are more likely to get a conviction on.The stand your ground law makes that very unlikely for obvious reasons.

Any case of self defense no matter the circumstances should be very thoroughly investigated by the DA.

Florida has State Attorney's, not District Attorneys, just FYI. They don't take them because it is a waste of resources, the law allows people to protect themselves and was put in place to avoid overzealous police/prosecutors from going after people who defended themselves.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

No, it does not matter that the nation is crying out about this, we do not operate on a system of mob rule.This is a local Law Enforcement matter and they made a decision not to charge him(Law Enforcement Officer's have discretion) based on Florida STATE Law, if they arrest someone when they are legally protected, they open up their department to lawsuits, bad publicity etc.The State Attorney's Office surely looked into this and felt that regardless of his actions, an altercation ensued and he used the force he deemed necessary to protect himself.There is no evidence to show this was racially motivated, every negative interaction between two people of different racial backrounds is NOT always a racial matter, in fact I will argue that it is rarely a racial thing now days. The way many people try to stretch hate crime laws is that if you get into an altercation with a minority or a homoesexual, you committed a hate crime, even if the crime was not motivated by prejudice.Bottom line, the guy is protected under Florida Law so those who have business in the matter, the Sanford Police and State Attorneys Office(they are sending it to a grand jury now) have the call here and the Feds have no reason to step in yet.Evidence surfaces to show that it was a racially motivated crime, Feds should then investigate.I think hate crime laws are silly, no one group should be protected more than others but that is a different discussion.

I am not defending Zimmerman, he is an idiot.Overzealous wannabe cop(must be a real f*ck up to not be able to be an actual cop, it's not that difficult, look at the people who become cops) who went looking for trouble and found it.Some type of altercation occurred and perhaps the kid was kicking his ass , he felt in danger and shot him.Legally, he is covered, it sucks but he is.The stand your ground law was put in place because people who defended themselves were prosecuted when they never should have been.

Governor Scott is calling for a review of the law and that is fine but Zimmerman has the law on his side in this one, like it or not.

You are clearly assuming that the boy was assaulting him when we have no evidence short of what Zimmerman claims and people always tell the truth after all what really happened did Zimmerman ID himself as a watch man? We do not know.Did Zimmerman do something to make the boy feel threatened? I would say yes because It seems very clear that Zimmeramn was following him in an regular vehicle I think any teenager would be a slight bit concerned about someone clearly following them.

You cant say that the law is on someones side simply because they claim so to have been following the law unless you can prove it to be so in this case that seems to be questionable.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

That's the real question. Who are the police to determine that there's a case or not against this guy? That's the DA's job.

Actually, the police have discretion is making arrests at the scene.They investigated and felt(rightfully so, like it or not) under FL Law that Zimmerman is protected.The State Attorney(no District Attorneys in Florida) no doubt reviewed it and felt it was justified, the end.Now, due to undue pressure, they are sending it to a grand jury, I don't really have a problem with because unless they bow to mob rule and don't follow the law, they will most likely see it the same way as the police and SAO.

Reminds of the Casey Anthony case, everyone was up in arms about the verdict but there just was not enough there to convict her of first degree murder.Like it or not, Zimmerman is protected.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You are clearly assuming that the boy was assaulting him when we have no evidence short of what Zimmerman claims and people always tell the truth after all what really happened did Zimmerman ID himself as a watch man? We do not know.Did Zimmerman do something to make the boy feel threatened? I would say yes because It seems very clear that Zimmeramn was following him in an regular vehicle I think any teenager would be a slight bit concerned about someone clearly following them.

You cant say that the law is on someones side simply because they claim so to have been following the law unless you can prove it to be so in this case that seems to be questionable.

Sounded like an altercation in the tapes, the police investigated and determined he was protected, the SAO reviewed it and determined the same.Grand Jury will probably do the same.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

It is nothing like that at all.

In Fla law, previous to SYG if you were accosted, threatened, etc. and you "could" run away you were obliged to do so. You did not have the right to stand your ground.

Heaven help you if you actually struck first and disarmed, or otherwise incapacitated your assailant, because Florida law did not have your back. You just committed a felony and could be sued by your attacker for costs and damages. It happened numerous times.

Stand Your Ground changed that.

Exactly what I have said in several posts, there were people prosecuted for just defending themselves! I grew up in Florida, I remember a few such cases in my hometown.

[Stealhead]

So you think that an overzealous gun toting man should walk free because there was an altercation (started by whom?) and that is that.What if Zimmerman started the altercation in that case the boy was within his right to fight back but oh he did not have a gun only his fists at most I would love to see a shot of Zimmermans face and body after they spoke with him does he have any sings of violent physical contact on him what about the boys body.How can you say for sure that Zimmerman did start the altercation and then pull a gun and shoot the boy when the boy was attempting to defend him self from Zimmerman?
It seems assumed that perhaps the boy started the altercation and got shot by Zimmerman what if Zimmerman started the altercation and the boy fought back and then got a gun pulled o him I think that might well explain why you can clearly hear a boy yelling out for help perhaps he stopped what ever action he was doing (regardless if he started the altercation) once Zimmerman drew his gun that really well explains why he is begging for someone to PLEASE HELP ME! anyone with half a brain can tell that is the voice of a young black male.If he stopped his actions yet Zimmerman still shot him that is 100% MURDER.

If Martin stopped what he was doing upon appearance of Zimmermans firearm then he was no longer an threat and then the law is not on the side of Zimmerman.If someone has time to say please help me then they are obviously not an imminent threat well then again they might be if someone does not what anyone else to witness clearly what is actually occurring.

[vienna]

Stealhead said:

Here in is the problem in FL DAs have taken on virtually no "stand your ground" cases they seem to avoid it like the plague.I suspect this is because of the wording of the law they feel that all but the most strong case is going to be a losing proposition so why take this kind of case when you can take ones that are easier to win like a drug case?DAs have an interest to appear to up hold the law so they want to take cases that they know that they are more likely to get a conviction on.The stand your ground law makes that very unlikely for obvious reasons.

It's not just because the cases can't be won, it's also the implications of a loss. If this "Stand Your Ground" case is pusued and lost the victim (if this case ever goes to trial, it is Martins not Zimmerman), the culpablilty will not only be Zimmerman's, the police and the local government, the SA's office and the state goverment will all be called to account for their actions prior to, during and following the crime. As I pointed out before, financial responsibily has the potential of costing the governments big time. Also, anyone who may have claimed "Stand Your Ground" as a defense of their actions could conceivably face legal action if the police, as in this case, merely wrote it off and there was no formal ajudication. The possibility is also strong of a court overturning the law completely as part of a decision regarding this case. So, basically, it not just not wanting to take a "gounder" and being the "Bill Buckner" of the Florida legal system, it's the whole can of political and financial worms that accompany a trial on this case. I think Florida state and local government would jump at a chance to dump the whole matter in the Fed's lap...

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by vienna

Stealhead said:




It's not just because the cases can't be won, it's also the implications of a loss. If this "Stand Your Ground" case is pusued and lost the victim (if this case ever goes to trial, it is Martins not Zimmerman), the culpablilty will not only be Zimmerman's, the police and the local government, the SA's office and the state goverment will all be called to account for their actions prior to, during and following the crime. As I pointed out before, financial responsibily has the potential of costing the governments big time. Also, anyone who may have claimed "Stand Your Ground" as a defense of their actions could conceivably face legal action if the police, as in this case, merely wrote it off and there was no formal ajudication. The possibility is also strong of a court overturning the law completely as part of a decision regarding this case. So, basically, it not just not wanting to take a "gounder" and being the "Bill Buckner" of the Florida legal system, it's the whole can of political and financial worms that accompany a trial on this case. I think Florida state and local government would jump at a chance to dump the whole matter in the Fed's lap...

Very true hopefully at least this incident will result in the state changing the wording of the law.