Was The Bombing of Hiroshima Necessary?

[Takeda Shingen]

Your cat is adorable, Subnuts.

[Feuer Frei!]

I've got a better idea.
How about i admit that the posting of this thread was a bad idea and we all start from square one again?
I'll make sure I don't ever post any WW2 matters, where either the US or Germany are involved, that way I can't be considered a European Circle Jerk, or people insinuating that i am a US hater or that i deliberately post these topics to stir up people's feelings.
A few of you have thrown one of those insinuations against me.
Most of you subtly, 1 person not so. Which i won't forget.
Once again, i am not a US hater, nor am i a PRO European, that thinks Europe rules over everything.
I understand it may be hard to analyze and to understand why a person posts a particular subject matter online, because you being online you can not gauge the poster's true motifs via face to face discussions beforehand, nor do you know the person in real life for a good, accepted amount of time to know what political, religious, or otherwise worldly beliefs he/she holds.
In closing, the nay-sayers about me couldn't be further from the mark, with what they have said about me.
And why do we fall continuously back on the "yea but it won't change people's minds" argument?
No-one is trying to change people's minds here, as i expressed earlier in this thread.
I think sometimes the 'rules of forums' go out the window, when a subject matter is posted on a forum and if it is to your liking, or you share interest in that topic, ie have valid opinions on that topic, you enter the thread and make some contributions, which can be gauged as mature and responsible.
Whereas in this thread, and the Dresden one, the rule, if you will, of people who don't give a flying rat's @&& or who think that the OP is just a hater of a country which he/she is posting about seems to be not upheld.
Shame that.
Let me ask the nay-sayers of me, a question:
How many times do I venture into a thread that I don't have any interest in and post pics in it which advertise my displeasure in a way which is almost certain to incite a strong dislike from the OP, especially if that poster insinuates things which are far-fetched and can be taken personal?
How many times have i entered a thread which i don't find interesting and insinuate personal judgment on the OP, which might i add is unfair?
I'll leave it at that. Make of this comment what you will.
I hope you read it with a open mind and a non-defensive attitude.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Apologies, my error.

Not a problem

Until next year then...

Not likely, see post # 77

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Platapus

You are gonna get Steve after you!!!!!

@ Ducimus and Feuer Frei: I don't care who cares, but I care that you care so little for Neal that you once again choose to ignore his rules on language.

[breadcatcher101]

I've no problem with this post. Aug. 6th was the day. Other dates have meaning which we have brought up here to go over, so no big deal. If anyone doesn't like it they don't have to even open the thread if they prefer.

Til next time...

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

@ Ducimus and Feuer Frei: I don't care who cares, but I care that you care so little for Neal that you once again choose to ignore his rules on language.

I have PM'd Neal.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

I do think it's still possible to discuss this in a level -headed manner. But as Takeda noted not many minds will be changed.

It always amazes me that people who were not alive 50 years after the fact get so emotionally charged they cannot discuss this without coming unglued.

It's history, people.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

It's history, people.

Quoted, reprinted in big, bold, flaming gold letters, framed and nailed on the wall.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

I'll make sure I don't ever post any WW2 matters, where either the US or Germany are involved, that way I can't be considered a European Circle Jerk, or people insinuating that i am a US hater or that i deliberately post these topics to stir up people's feelings.

Some of the responses here reminded me why more often than not any kind of discussion about a historical topic is a pointless exercise.

Since we Europeans are 2nd class members (at least some here seem to think so), just make sure to show reverence and compassion for the US and its people on December 7th, September the 11th, July the 4th, June the 6th, July the 21st and whatever important date there may be.

In regards to some of the posts:
IMHO, discussions like this are not there to change minds. Often they are being posted to gain access to new or more views and opinions from a lot of sources and very often knowledgeable people. Where else would one ask a question like that, but in an environment (Forum) where one is comfortable and know that there are a lot of people with some views and insight into the topic in question.

(Even Tribesman stayed on topic.. Props for that. At least I think he did.. )

The same question was asked before, but really.. is that so bad that it came up again?
But guess what, next year it is bound to be posted again. One of the obvious reasons are new members who weren't here when it came down this time around. One solution would be that the mods could post a list with "Forbidden Topics" if this is so offensive and to avoid further occurrences.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

It always amazes me that people who were not alive 50 years after the fact get so emotionally charged they cannot discuss this without coming unglued.



It's history, people.

I think the problem is the article that was chosen and the context in it.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Thomen

Some of the responses here reminded me why more often than not any kind of discussion about a historical topic is a pointless exercise.

Since we Europeans are 2nd class members (at least some here seem to think so), just make sure to show reverence and compassion for the US and its people on December 7th, September the 11th, July the 4th, July the 6th, July the 21st and whatever important date there may be.

In regards to some of the posts:
IMHO, discussions like this are not there to change minds. Often they are being posted to gain access to new or more views and opinions from a lot of sources and very often knowledgeable people. Where else would one ask a question like that, but in an environment (Forum) where one is comfortable and know that there are a lot of people with some views and insight into the topic in question.

(Even Tribesman stayed on topic.. Props for that. At least I think he did.. )

The same question was asked before, but really.. is that so bad that it came up again?
But guess what, next year it is bound to be posted again. One of the obvious reasons are new members who weren't here when it came down this time around. One solution would be that the mods could post a list with "Forbidden Topics" if this is so offensive and to avoid further occurrences.

Indeed. All pretty good points to note for us Europeans.

Originally Posted by MH

I think the problem is the article that was chosen and the context in it.

The article 'chosen' was an article that i actually happened to stumble across whilst browsing said subject matter, due to driving in the car and listening to the national broadcast service.
I didn't hand-pick it to show members what 'we' as in the people that attempt to discuss ALL sides of history that we hate the US, and have a desire to stir up trouble on the forum.
Like i said before, that is not the goal of this thread.
And yes, the article doesn't agree fully with the pro US members here, so what? Does everything that is written about the US have to be agreed upon by US citizens?
Or any other country for that matter.
Heck, look at Germany. How many articles have been written about that country, it's involvement in WW2 and other global events. Do i agree with every single thing written about that country? Hell no.
Do i get my back up about things that have been written about that country? Hell yes.
But would that stop me from attempting to have a mature and respectful discussion, in the circumstances? Without resorting to personal attacks or spamming crap in the thread? Nope.
The article posted here, and i agree, poses some serious questions and it may be easy for the defenses to come up and people getting rather irate about the way it was written, and the content of the article.
It's all good and well people having opinions and not sharing the same beliefs as others. But when the attempt to discuss matters in a mature and open-minded way fall, then that becomes an issue.
On a side note, there have been, i admit attempts made to discuss this in a mature and sensible manner.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Feuer Frei: I don't get the attacks on you either. Other things aside, I never thought you were supporting the article or its author, and it looks to me like your questions were honest.

[em2nought]

Here we go again, descendants of evil axis powers trying to spin the USA as their diobolical equivalent. LMFAO Sorry we just wanted to bring a war to an end, didn't get caught up in exterminating entire races or peoples. Frankly, we should have done the same thing about ten years ago.

The biggest problem with the annual discussion of the Hiroshima bombing is that it is essentially sterile. There is no new scholarship on the attacks, no newly revealed documentation, no new balanced assessment of the options and no new perspectives. Rather just a rehash of the same tired mythologies, out of context quotes, hand wringing, exaggeration and 20/20 hindsight.

The article in the OP is chock full of anti-American cant and works overtime to place the attacks in the context of postwar alleged US military excesses and even throws out accusations of war crimes and mass murder. That, and placing an historical event into a contemporary ethical frame of reference. Hardly an objective foundation for rational and balanced discussion.

The atomic attacks are most certainly of historical importance but on the Internet the subject is flogged to death annually about this time. The same arguments on both sides showcasing the same evidence with vast amounts of acrimony and more than a little BS thrown in to make the desired case.

I would gladly sit down one on one to rationally and reasonably debate the subject; it is worthy of discussion but not on an Internet forum where comprehension is typically lacking, mindsets are fixed, hyperbole rules and Wikipedia is often held to represent the suppository of all knowledge.

[Highbury]

Why should the Americans feel guilty?

Sure it was the US Government/Military that ultimately made the call to use it, and the planes had a US crews and stars on the wings but the bombs inside had uranium from Canada and South America as well as the US. Plutonium for the Nagasaki bomb came in part from Canada as well. Besides the US based research teams, research also came from Chalk River Laboratories in Ontario, and Tube Alloys in the UK. In the labs in all these countries actually making the bombs there were people of practically every nationality in Europe.

Think whatever you want about the ethical argument, but making it out as a case of "mass murdering Americans" is just ridiculous. It is about time this thread died for the year, so maybe we can make the argument more civil in 2012, huh?