Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins" - Page 6

Subnuts · 04-10-10, 07:40 PM

I was just looking through my review of "Iron Coffins" and noticed this passage:

It was much to my surprise, then, that a recent discussion of this book on the forum ended in a prolonged flame war.

Shame I didn't include any ironic statements about history repeating itself.

mcarlsonus · 04-10-10, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subnuts

I was just looking through my review of "Iron Coffins" and noticed this passage:

It was much to my surprise, then, that a recent discussion of this book on the forum ended in a prolonged flame war.

Shame I didn't include any ironic statements about history repeating itself.

I admire your patience! You are, of course, absolutely correct - and that's unfortunate!

Nisgeis · 04-11-10, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subnuts

I was just looking through my review of "Iron Coffins" and noticed this passage:

It was much to my surprise, then, that a recent discussion of this book on the forum ended in a prolonged flame war.

Shame I didn't include any ironic statements about history repeating itself.

Nah, in other threads before lots of people have stated that it is a work of absolute truth and it all did happen and people were just saying it wasn't true because they were jealous of Werner's l33t hax0r skillz or something. (I'm paraphrasing).

Now, it's an argument over whether the book is the work of a mentally ill man, or whether he wrote a book bigging himself up for personal gain, or whether Werner ever claimed it was true and is the victim of a publisher twisting the introduction.

No one's arguing over whether it's true or not, it seems to have been agreed upon that it is a good read, but not representative of the career of Werner, but an amalgamation of what perhaps other commanders went through. I haven't read it yet, but I'm pleased that it will be a 'good read' when I do, but won't be taking it as gospel. Thanks for posting the OP.

flag4 · 04-11-10, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Which one is flag4, and which is ianc?

HEY! - i'd just got promoted that day

thanks for the mamory!

Zoomer96 · 04-12-10, 12:17 PM

I read Iron Coffins about thirty years ago. Back then we didn't have the internet, submarine simulations, or easy access to historical facts. So all this time I assumed he was a top Uboat ace! I guess I'll have to find an old copy and look at it again. Well, I thought it was a good read anyhow.

Jeffg · 04-12-10, 07:52 PM

I was always wondering why Herbert Werner has never has never granted interviews. I know that during the writing of Shadow Divers he refused to be interviewed. I might be wrong as my wife says I am never right.

JeffG

Joe Bob · 04-13-10, 05:02 PM

I read Iron Coffins many times when I was a kid and recently purchased it to see how it held up. I immediately recognized many errors of course and was greatly disappointed. It felt as if an old friend had let me down but by the end of the book I was still glad I bought it.

If you recall the period of time he wrote the book, the late 1960's there was still a lot of misinformation about the actions of the U boat arm in WW2. I think Werner wanted to give a personal view of what it was like. I also think he wanted to get that story published. At a time when there were still plenty of veterans around, what publisher is he going to find to sell a book about U boats where no ships are sunk. Therefore I think he embellished (greatly) the events that happened under other skippers and perhaps some events after the war. As far as his own success as a skipper, I remember saying he made an attack and hearing explosions but not claiming he saw any ships sunk by his torpedoes. His accounts begin to ring true to me when he gets into his commands later in the war.

I don't think it was an ego thing, I think it was what was necessary to get a book published during that period of time. I think he was wrong to say it is all true and I hope it's flaws become widely know via the web, but that hardly makes him unique among WW2 memoir authors. I now see the book as one that does a good job of giving you a sense of what it must have felt like to survive those times.

PS: if he was mentally ill, it was not debilitating, I saw trucks from his post war business up and down the Eastern Seaboard of the US for decades

thisdougsforu · 04-15-10, 04:37 PM

Well, I wish I had read this thread last week....I bought Iron Coffins and I'm about halfway through it. I had just read Sledge's "With the Old Breed", so I was in the mood for some WW2 reading.

Iron Coffins has been a compelling read thus far....but after hearing all the stuff in this thread, it makes me not care so much to finish it. Oh, I'm sure I will, but it's disappointing.

I'm a long time WW2 nerd, but recently got into subs via SH3, so I wasn't aware that much of this book was made up, I had just heard it was a classic tale of life on a Uboat. What a shame

Ducimus · 04-15-10, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Iron Coffins has been a compelling read thus far....but after hearing all the stuff in this thread, it makes me not care so much to finish it.

If you don't finish it, you'll miss the part where he prattles on about trying to get out of being impressed in to the french foreign legion!

kylania · 04-15-10, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisdougsforu

I'm a long time WW2 nerd, but recently got into subs via SH3, so I wasn't aware that much of this book was made up, I had just heard it was a classic tale of life on a Uboat. What a shame

Same for me when I read this back when SH3 came out. Might give it another read now. I remember enjoying it, but didn't realize it was all "enhanced"

Steeltrap · 04-16-10, 12:23 AM

Both of O'Kane's books are great (Wahoo and Clear the Bridge). So is Cremer's U333. I have all three.

Cremer does a great job of conveying the sadness and stupidity of the exercise. His matter of fact discussions of rather hair-raising events are remarkable. I remember seeing him intervierwed in World at War where he describes the episode where U333 is caught on the surface by a corvette (HMS Bluebell? I'm going from memory....could look it up I guess!). His wounds were dreadful. As he says in the book, he and the skipper of the corvette went on to exchange Christmas cards after the war (I'm pretty sure the skipper was a New Zealander, and he and his wife sent Cremer food parcels when they learned he was alive and the conditions of post-war Germany; I might be wrong).

O'kane, too, is great to read. So much around the technical abilities of the boats and the issues around pre-war doctrine and crappy torps etc etc.

My preference is for writings that are not sensational in their presentation, but describe sensational things.

I've also read some of the many 'reference works' (i.e. academic in nature) available.

Never read Iron Coffins.

p.s. let's try to keep bitchiness out of here, please?

caine007 · 04-16-10, 07:14 PM

I just finished reading Iron Coffins.

A few alarm bells did go off before I read this post (mostly the reported depths they seemed to routinely dive to - 280+ metres, the 'hiding' from destroyers behind merchant ships and the almost faultless accuracy of most of their torpedo attacks) but at the same time it was still a good read just for the immersion factor.

It's pity that some wouldn't be able to pick out some of the more blatant inaccuracies but I still think it conveys a sense of the sudden change in fortunes of the u-boat war and the hopelessness that begins to set in.

Read it with a pinch of salt.

Zedwardson · 05-14-10, 11:38 AM

I haven't read Iron Coffens (though it is on my kindle for a read) and while you may laugh about the French Foreign Legion, a lot of german troops who surrendered to the french, ended up being put into the French Foreign Legion (the other option was to be turned back to the soviets) thus many Germans wanted to make sure they surrendered to the Brits or Americans.

Also, which book is it where the author (a us submerine commander) talks about reconning a small atoll and since they didn't have a good map of it, they outlined it on Toilet Paper and blew it up using a camera lens to make a bigger map?

Rip · 05-14-10, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedwardson

I haven't read Iron Coffens (though it is on my kindle for a read) and while you may laugh about the French Foreign Legion, a lot of german troops who surrendered to the french, ended up being put into the French Foreign Legion (the other option was to be turned back to the soviets) thus many Germans wanted to make sure they surrendered to the Brits or Americans.

Also, which book is it where the author (a us submerine commander) talks about reconning a small atoll and since they didn't have a good map of it, they outlined it on Toilet Paper and blew it up using a camera lens to make a bigger map?

I think that would be the Wewak harbor recon conducted by the Wahoo with Mush Morton commanding and Richard O'Kane serving as XO. IIRC it was the first war patrol after Morton took over from the CO O'Kane hated that was very conservative.

The Duck · 09-29-14, 03:34 PM

Hello all.
New to this site.
Just been reading the comments on "Iron Coffins".
I thought it an interesting book but am now slightly disillusioned, hey ho what's real these days?
"The Longest Patrol" is also a good read.
I realise I've be following an old thread here so let's get up to date.

My interest is in one boat only: U-953.
My uncle Hans Harder was a crew member of this boat.
I have been trying to gather information about Hans and the boat for some time now.
Any pictures, details history, whatever would be very welcome.

History from my point that may be useful to followers here is as follows.

Hans was Born in Neuminster Germany on the 2nd May 1922.
Following the surrender of the boat, he was taken to Huyton, Liverpool to a POW camp. There he met my mothers' sister, they married and Hans stayed in Liverpool after hostilities ceased.
He worked first of all down the mines in the St Helens area and eventually ended up working for Fords Halewood.
My own father died when I was six and Hans became a "second" father to me and my two brothers. Hence my belated interest in his past.
Sadly Hans died a number of years ago so I'm not able to get any direct information.
I look forward to hearing from anyone with any information.
Thanks in advance.
The Duck

04-10-10, 07:40 PM	#76
Subnuts The Old Man Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,658 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I was just looking through my review of "Iron Coffins" and noticed this passage: It was much to my surprise, then, that a recent discussion of this book on the forum ended in a prolonged flame war. Shame I didn't include any ironic statements about history repeating itself. __________________ My Amazon.com reviews

04-12-10, 12:17 PM	#80
Zoomer96 Helmsman Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 106 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 0	I read Iron Coffins about thirty years ago. Back then we didn't have the internet, submarine simulations, or easy access to historical facts. So all this time I assumed he was a top Uboat ace! I guess I'll have to find an old copy and look at it again. Well, I thought it was a good read anyhow.

04-12-10, 07:52 PM	#81
Jeffg Exec Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: ponte vedra beach,fl Posts: 250 Downloads: 1669 Uploads: 0	I was always wondering why Herbert Werner has never has never granted interviews. I know that during the writing of Shadow Divers he refused to be interviewed. I might be wrong as my wife says I am never right. JeffG

04-13-10, 05:02 PM	#82
Joe Bob Watch Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 29 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	I read Iron Coffins many times when I was a kid and recently purchased it to see how it held up. I immediately recognized many errors of course and was greatly disappointed. It felt as if an old friend had let me down but by the end of the book I was still glad I bought it. If you recall the period of time he wrote the book, the late 1960's there was still a lot of misinformation about the actions of the U boat arm in WW2. I think Werner wanted to give a personal view of what it was like. I also think he wanted to get that story published. At a time when there were still plenty of veterans around, what publisher is he going to find to sell a book about U boats where no ships are sunk. Therefore I think he embellished (greatly) the events that happened under other skippers and perhaps some events after the war. As far as his own success as a skipper, I remember saying he made an attack and hearing explosions but not claiming he saw any ships sunk by his torpedoes. His accounts begin to ring true to me when he gets into his commands later in the war. I don't think it was an ego thing, I think it was what was necessary to get a book published during that period of time. I think he was wrong to say it is all true and I hope it's flaws become widely know via the web, but that hardly makes him unique among WW2 memoir authors. I now see the book as one that does a good job of giving you a sense of what it must have felt like to survive those times. PS: if he was mentally ill, it was not debilitating, I saw trucks from his post war business up and down the Eastern Seaboard of the US for decades

04-15-10, 04:37 PM	#83
thisdougsforu Swabbie Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 6 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Well, I wish I had read this thread last week....I bought Iron Coffins and I'm about halfway through it. I had just read Sledge's "With the Old Breed", so I was in the mood for some WW2 reading. Iron Coffins has been a compelling read thus far....but after hearing all the stuff in this thread, it makes me not care so much to finish it. Oh, I'm sure I will, but it's disappointing. I'm a long time WW2 nerd, but recently got into subs via SH3, so I wasn't aware that much of this book was made up, I had just heard it was a classic tale of life on a Uboat. What a shame

04-16-10, 12:23 AM	#86
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Both of O'Kane's books are great (Wahoo and Clear the Bridge). So is Cremer's U333. I have all three. Cremer does a great job of conveying the sadness and stupidity of the exercise. His matter of fact discussions of rather hair-raising events are remarkable. I remember seeing him intervierwed in World at War where he describes the episode where U333 is caught on the surface by a corvette (HMS Bluebell? I'm going from memory....could look it up I guess!). His wounds were dreadful. As he says in the book, he and the skipper of the corvette went on to exchange Christmas cards after the war (I'm pretty sure the skipper was a New Zealander, and he and his wife sent Cremer food parcels when they learned he was alive and the conditions of post-war Germany; I might be wrong). O'kane, too, is great to read. So much around the technical abilities of the boats and the issues around pre-war doctrine and crappy torps etc etc. My preference is for writings that are not sensational in their presentation, but describe sensational things. I've also read some of the many 'reference works' (i.e. academic in nature) available. Never read Iron Coffins. p.s. let's try to keep bitchiness out of here, please?

04-16-10, 07:14 PM	#87
caine007 A-ganger Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 72 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	I just finished reading Iron Coffins. A few alarm bells did go off before I read this post (mostly the reported depths they seemed to routinely dive to - 280+ metres, the 'hiding' from destroyers behind merchant ships and the almost faultless accuracy of most of their torpedo attacks) but at the same time it was still a good read just for the immersion factor. It's pity that some wouldn't be able to pick out some of the more blatant inaccuracies but I still think it conveys a sense of the sudden change in fortunes of the u-boat war and the hopelessness that begins to set in. Read it with a pinch of salt.

05-14-10, 11:38 AM	#88
Zedwardson Sparky Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 154 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I haven't read Iron Coffens (though it is on my kindle for a read) and while you may laugh about the French Foreign Legion, a lot of german troops who surrendered to the french, ended up being put into the French Foreign Legion (the other option was to be turned back to the soviets) thus many Germans wanted to make sure they surrendered to the Brits or Americans. Also, which book is it where the author (a us submerine commander) talks about reconning a small atoll and since they didn't have a good map of it, they outlined it on Toilet Paper and blew it up using a camera lens to make a bigger map?

09-29-14, 03:34 PM	#90
The Duck Bilge Rat Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hello all. New to this site. Just been reading the comments on "Iron Coffins". I thought it an interesting book but am now slightly disillusioned, hey ho what's real these days? "The Longest Patrol" is also a good read. I realise I've be following an old thread here so let's get up to date. My interest is in one boat only: U-953. My uncle Hans Harder was a crew member of this boat. I have been trying to gather information about Hans and the boat for some time now. Any pictures, details history, whatever would be very welcome. History from my point that may be useful to followers here is as follows. Hans was Born in Neuminster Germany on the 2nd May 1922. Following the surrender of the boat, he was taken to Huyton, Liverpool to a POW camp. There he met my mothers' sister, they married and Hans stayed in Liverpool after hostilities ceased. He worked first of all down the mines in the St Helens area and eventually ended up working for Fords Halewood. My own father died when I was six and Hans became a "second" father to me and my two brothers. Hence my belated interest in his past. Sadly Hans died a number of years ago so I'm not able to get any direct information. I look forward to hearing from anyone with any information. Thanks in advance. The Duck