Behold!! The cancerous growth of Wal Mart!!!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by tater

Bottom line is people are worth exactly what they are paid in a free market, no more. If you want to make 60 grand a year instead of 30 grand, get another 30k job and work nights—as I said, most people I know that make good wages work well over 60 hours a week, and many might only work 60 now, but did their time working 80+ hours for years (I did for around 10 years).

Or get a job that pays you 60 grand and work the same amount of hours.
Be it through getting additional education\certification.

When I was younger I worked a job 80 + hours a week. In the short term it was ok, but long term no thanks.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by tater

A free market is the only "natural" economy for any population larger than an extended family group (small tribe?).

I see it excactly the opposite way, as I have repeatedly pointed out in discussions with Lance. a capitalistic market theory and a truly democratic democracy can only work as intended within relativel small community sizes. The bigger the community, the more complex it becomes, the more "unüberschaubar" (unmanagable, uncheckable, nonfunctional) it becomes, and the more corruption pushes back the original intention behodn the idea. Beyond a critical community size democracy gets turned into right it's own opposite, and free capitalistic market becomes an unfree market driven by monopolies and cartels.

the community must be of that size that every member can fully overwatch it'S expanse and thus witnesses and is aware of any chnage there is taking place, so that no individual can escape accepting responsibility for his/her own deeds and actions, because it is eveident for everybody in how far these actions have effected the community's assets for ther worse or the better.

and that means we talk or relatively small communities. small towns a best.rural places where farmers and family know each other and have personal contact to each other. We talk of small idylls, a fairy-tale world that is unrealistic nowadays. And that'S why I reject the classic anglosaxon economy theory. In a way it describes an utopia, like communism does.

the corruption and degeneration of western democracies and economies for me is directly linked to gian society constructions we have formed. And that leads me to thinking that a truly dmeoicratic global society and globalised economy driven by free market ideas and constuctive capitalistic ideas, is an illusion that is impossible to work. The scaling simply is FUBAR.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I always thought it to be a good idea to have some kind of a legally fixed relation between the lowest income of a worker at the top, and the most senior and responsible leader at the top of a company. Let there be a span of - just as an example - a factor of 25. the man on top earns 20 times as much, at maximum!...

...If this balance would be acchieved, what else could there be to wish for? This is the most dominant priority for any responsible management there could be - not this megalomaniac craving for more and more profits for those at the top.

And how exactly to you propose to enforce this?

Say, in how many palaces can walk around at the same time? How many private jets are the one jet too much? how many Ferraris can you drive simultaneously?

How many big brothers does it take to make that decision?

I see it excactly the opposite way, as I have repeatedly pointed out in discussions with Lance. a capitalistic market theory and a truly democratic democracy can only work as intended within relativel small community sizes. The bigger the community, the more complex it becomes, the more "unüberschaubar" (unmanagable, uncheckable, nonfunctional) it becomes, and the more corruption pushes back the original intention behodn the idea. Beyond a critical community size democracy gets turned into right it's own opposite, and free capitalistic market becomes an unfree market driven by monopolies and cartels.

But that is also true of governments.

the corruption and degeneration of western democracies and economies for me is directly linked to gian society constructions we have formed. And that leads me to thinking that a truly dmeoicratic global society and globalised economy driven by free market ideas and constuctive capitalistic ideas, is an illusion that is impossible to work. The scaling simply is FUBAR.

Again, that is true of every facet of society, not just the economy. How do you propose to change it?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If you feel so strongly about this, why aren't you a prominent crusader and in the government, instead of posting on a small website in the middle of nowhere?

No defending SB but there are plenty of SUBSIM Bloggers here
It's called General Topics

I know you just turned 60 SS, but you're slipping.....

j\k

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

No defending SB but there are plenty of SUBSIM Bloggers here.

I know, but I don't think posting here is going to change the world.

It's called General Topics.

Sometimes with a General Attitude.

I know you just turned 60 SS, but you're slipping...

No, I've always been this way. "Getting Old" is a great excuse for not being able to do the things you couldn't do anyway.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I know, but I don't think posting here is going to change the world.

I don't disagree. That is why for the most part I avoid it

No, I've always been this way. "Getting Old" is a great excuse for not being able to do the things you couldn't do anyway.

And we'll all be there someday.

[tater]

Skybird, you can see it that way, but black markets crop up in virtually every human situation naturally. You can have a free market with no threat of violence—you cannot have regulation/socialization without the threat of force, period.

What examples are there of nation-states that have 100% voluntary "regulation" and control of the economy?

I missed you post suggesting forced wage caps at 25X lowest income. What an awful word to live in that would be. No incentive to do more than laze around. That sort of law would be well past my "to arms!" tripwire.

[tater]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...NewsCollection

What walmart is really lacking, as I said well above, is quality customers. The problem with being cheap is that visiting the store is like visiting an urban bus station.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by tater

I missed you post suggesting forced wage caps at 25X lowest income. What an awful word to live in that would be. No incentive to do more than laze around. That sort of law would be well past my "to arms!" tripwire.

Incentive...? Is a freaking several tens of thousands of dollars not enough for doing an office job? You guys seem to think that if a company makes millions in income due to a director having made a certain decision, that at least parts of that profit his is personal property. It is not! The man makes decisions, that is his job, his damn duty, that'S what he already is being payed for - you can be polite and say "thanks" - but already that thanks is not mandatory, for he just fulfills his damn duty for which he additionally already gets payed...!

One million income per month - no sports, no show act, no movie, no business is worth it as long as you do not save the planet and bring peace to mankind or find a cure for a lethal epidemic.

Incentive is all nice and well - but they can be in relation to what is being done in workload and success - or can be totally disconnected from any such realities. And the latter all too often is the case.

If you think the top manager achieving orders by customers that secure a million-.heavy profit for the company earns that manager one of these isnanely high incomes - then figiure what that decision, that catching of custimer orders would be worth if the worker and staff refuse to process the order. Woithiut the lower ranking workforce, the top staff would acchieve NOTHINg. You do not only need a clever factory manager, you also need the workers running the factory. Both are mutually deopending on each other, and this shoudl be reflected in a fairer, more reasonable relation between his and their income. but if workers get fired and their wages cut and their income even more reduced by ifnlation some bastard bankers have pushed by causing a mess the taxpayers have to fix, while the top class of leading managers quadruple their incomes within five years and sign themselves in for additional bonus payments while they already go home every onths with hudnreds of thosuands and even millions, then this system may be called capitalistic or not, but it remains what it is: sick, unjust, undeserved, and in disregard for a realistic perspecrtive on things.

The strong eats the weak - that is all there is to this model.

You either accept that, or you decide to speak out against that. Both possible actions and replies tell something about your own personal morality.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

We can do that. At that opportunity we could ask them if they earn enough money so that they could afford to buy in a more expensive supermarket instead of a discounter.

There is a reason why cheap discounters are booming. At the same time these discounters can only be cheaper, because they offer less service and pay their employees worse. Which leaves you with employed but exploited consumers having less money - and thus many cannot afford to buy in more expensive supermarkets - where the workers get payed fairer wages.

Fair enough, Sky. I think people who earn enough money to buy clothes at Macy's and tools at Sears already make the decision where to spend their money. We could ask middle-income people to avoid Wal-mart, but the choice is still theirs and a lot of them prefer to stretch their dollar at WM. Besides, if more people avoided WM, that would not induce the company to pay their employees more, I don't think.

However, there are many other reasons discounters like WM can offer lower prices. You know they put a lot of thought and effort into making their supply chain very efficient. They have some really outstanding management practices, that save them costs. Wal-Mart is a very smart company.

The minimum criterion for a fair wage is that if somebody works fulltime a week in a given job, he needs to be able to make a living by his income that funds his family, pays for raising and educating his children, and secure his life's evening when he has become old and does not work anymore. Else there would be no point in working fulltime.

I respectfully disagree, and I am not trying to change your opinion. The minimum criterion for a fair wage is what people will accept. I cannot buy into socially engineered pay structures. You mandate a "fair" pay that covers all those areas, there is less incentive for people to strive. I do not think that will work over the long run. Ask GM.

Originally Posted by tater

....you cannot have regulation/socialization without the threat of force, period.

Wow, that is so true.

[tater]

Money is not zero-sum, sorry.

If someone gets paid 1 million a year by the stockholders (otherwise known as "the public") it's because they think that he is worth that money.

Just like it's worth it to Hollywood to pay someone 10 million to make a movie, or 3 million to throw a ball.

An ARBITRARY cap is just that, arbitrary (and stupid).

All of a sudden making 25.00001X lowest wage is immoral (and illegal) while 25.000 is just dandy?

What about all the people that make money selling stuff to people with money?

[Admiral8Q]

Nothing against the Chinese, but I refuse to buy anything "Made in China".

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Incentive...? Is a freaking several tens of thousands of dollars not enough for doing an office job? You guys seem to think that if a company makes millions in income due to a director having made a certain decision, that at least parts of that profit his is personal property. It is not! The man makes decisions, that is his job, his damn duty, that'S what he already is being payed for - you can be polite and say "thanks" - but already that thanks is not mandatory, for he just fulfills his damn duty for which he additionally already gets payed...!

And who makes that decision? You? Me? I think American senators and congressmen (and the president) are vastly overpaid for what is supposed to be a public service. I would have to convince enough congresspeople that it should be changed, since they are the ones with the power to make that change. It is absolutely not going to happen. So how exactly do you propose making top corporate people make what you think they deserve?

One million income per month - no sports, no show act, no movie, no business is worth it as long as you do not save the planet and bring peace to mankind or find a cure for a lethal epidemic.

Again, exactly how do you mean to change that, without removing all freedom from everybody?

[CaptainHaplo]

The minimum criterion for a fair wage is that if somebody works fulltime a week in a given job, he needs to be able to make a living by his income that funds his family, pays for raising and educating his children, and secure his life's evening when he has become old and does not work anymore. Else there would be no point in working fulltime.

Please sir - put down the crack and step slowly away from the pipe.....

Skybird - how much does an education cost? Assuming your talking about JUST "primary" education - aka small children through high school - how much is that cost PER child? Using the "family of four" standard that has been bandied about - and using my own state's average cost per child (which was $8023.38 for FY2006) - and its fair to note that my state ranks fairly low in their per child spending - this just added $16k to the cost of that one employee... Now of course - to feed a family of 4 - which I have btw - our weekly grocery bill is between $150 - 200. We will use the $150 - multiply that by 52 weeks a year.... That is a grocery bill of $7,800 dollars a year just to feed everyone. Now we have a house payment and car payment - we will make it easy (as well as way too cheap just to prove the point) and include all the insurance and licensing costs with that - $1000 for the house and $300 for the car. So thats $15,600 for those. So right now we are at 16k + $7,800 + 15,600..... That equals $39,400.00

Now - Utilities (electricity, gas, oil, etc) - lets be gentle and make that $150 a month. Fuel for the vehicle - again using my own family experience that is about $200 bucks a month (I drive to work and back - thats it). So that adds another $4200 - and we haven't touched the costs of stuff like property taxes, or the cost of the health insurance, much less your "secure his life's evening when he has become old and does not work anymore." ideal.

So at this point - we have a total cost of JUST $43,600 not counting your very happy worker's contribution to his 401(k) - which lets say he decides to do a 3% contribution (which is also rather low) so thats an additional $1300.

Your ideal world will pay this employee more than $44,900 dollars a year (since I already noted there were other costs I haven't counted) - for putting boxes and cans on shelves, or running a cash register 40 hours a week.

But this STILL isn't the total cost - because it neglects payroll taxes ($2,783 for SS, $651 for medicare taxes, amounts for FUTA and SUTA will vary) , the company match to the 401(k) ($1300), health insurance costs paid by the employer, etc etc...

Just in taxes and the retirement push the cost of that employee well over $50,000 dollars a year. The health insurance is a substantial cost that will be specific to each employer - so I can't give numbers there.

$50,000 - Figure 260 paid work days a year (2 weeks vacation/sick time - total 250 days worked) - you have a person costing $200 a day - for 8 hours. That breaks down to a "realistic minimum fair" COST to be $25 dollars an hour for a stockboy putting cans on a shelf to that company.

Whats funny - is we didn't even count ALOT of additional costs for the family - so the real final numbers would be alot highter. So I challenge you Skybird - find ANY economic system - free market or fully socialized - that can sustain that level of burden long term without massive inflation (rising costs of good). There isn't one. Its not a perfect system we have - but your "utopian" one is doomed to catastrophic failure whereas a capitalist one is not.

[Ducimus]

You know what, i don't give a rats ass about all this lofty BS pro suspender man wallstreet job robbing talk.

Here's what i know and what i see.

Manufacturing jobs have been, are, or are going. Being outsourced , or "offshored" or "3rd partied" to places like China. IT jobs along with them from where im sitting. My own job is liable to be "3rd partied" before too long.

My father's workplace is a great example of SKILLED CRAFTSMAN being replaced by cheap specialized labor all so boardmembers and executives can have HUGE f*cking salaries and bonuses. Let me rephriase that. Americans are losing their livelyhoods so this upper 1% can get paid more.

Over the years, I've see cost of living increasing, jobs decreasing, no raises and stagnant income, all the while executives see increased salary and bonuses. I see more and more people sharing apartments because they can't afford to rent their own apartment, let alone buy a god damn house.

Written language does not adequately describe my disgust for this. Sure, go walmart, go ahead and put Americans out of good jobs while your exeuctives clean house. Yeah.. aren't we so lucky to have them, and their pro company men to explain to us. Brav -- Oh!