Das Boot or the American Fleet Boat

[Krauter]

Thanks Sailor Steve, I'll have to look into it.

[jazman]

Fleet Boats:

1. Ice Cream Machines
2. Washing Machines
3. Showers
4. Fryers
5. Shaving

Luxury yachts!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by jazman

Fleet Boats:

1. Ice Cream Machines
2. Washing Machines
3. Showers
4. Fryers
5. Shaving

Luxury yachts!

This is the kind of ignorant post that draws out a scathing rebuttle, and the back and forth continues without end.

[Subnuts]

Originally Posted by jazman

Fleet Boats:

1. Ice Cream Machines
2. Washing Machines
3. Showers
4. Fryers
5. Shaving

Luxury yachts!

Yeah, how dare 80 men crammed in a 14-foot wide metal tube for two months on end, with a 1-in-5 chance of being killed, be given some bare creature comforts in return for fighting a decisive submarine campaign against the Japanese empire. REAL men, like us in the Fighting Keyboardists, thrive on bad hygiene, bad food, and tropical diseases.

[Reaves]

I enojyed this thread and the information in it. Very interesting.


And the SPitfire is better than 109 and Mustang...

/runs

[V.C. Sniper]

U.S. Fleet submarines FTW

[Ducimus]

What's always funny to me is how some folks who, by the way they talk, seem obviously more interested in Uboats, like to use Ice cream machines as a point of ridicule. As if Ice cream machines were standard equipment or something.

They were actually Jerry rigged devices. Made out of "acquired" and salvaged parts; Producing ice cream that often had a taste of hydraulic oil with metal bits from gears. At least at first, until the crews perfected it. It was something that one boat did, and as time went on, other boats got in on the act and made some ice creamers of their own.

This "point of ridicule" in reality highlights the ingenuity that existed among the men that fought in these submarines. It's been said by one Naval author of the time, that submariners were "Born gadgeteers". One rumor has it that one crew disassembled an entire jeep and ferreted it away in the engine rooms before going on patrol. Jeeps arent all that big, so i suppose its possible.

what was he planning on doing with it? Driving it on the sea?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by MattDizzle

what was he planning on doing with it? Driving it on the sea?

IF that rumor was true, i imagine that boat would probably be going from Pearl Harbor to Fremantle Australia. It was considered the port to go to. Lots to see and do. So some jeep would be something to have.

[Rockin Robbins]

So nobody thinks that unlimited submarine warfare by the Germans was inappropriate and could progress in no fashion but to lose the war for the Germans?

They were operating on an ocean where Allied ASW forces were completely unapposed. They had no effective air cover or spotting because the Allies controlled both the air and the surface. Once they were detected they were a dead duck with escorts and aircraft free to engage without any outside interference at all. That Atlantic was an Allied lake.

Then the ultimate stupidity of firing that first torpedo out of a U-Boat and declaring unlimited warfare. Across the Atlantic was a country mired in isolationism. The American people were almost unanimously of a mind to let Europe go to hell without them. Had Roosevelt been discovered helping the British as much as he did, letting Churchill set up a government in exile in case of Britain's defeat, allowing the British Secret Service to operate from the US, Roosevelt would immediately been impeached and there wouldn't have been much debate about it.

Yet, how could an unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic progresss in any other way but inevitably to bring the US into the conflict. Can submarines attack a factory in Kansas? Surely they could torpedo all the railroad cars crossing the state of Utah! In fact, they couldn't touch the US in any meaningful way! It was nothing less than an act of suicide which resulted directly in the demise of the Third Reich.

Nothing nationalistic in anything I've said. Each point is a fact. In my first post, what is nationalistic? Calling names isn't sufficient to disprove anything, just makes the name-caller look silly.

I have equal fun playing U-Boats or fleet boats in the games, SH4 and SH3. I admit I tend to play the U-Boat with American leaning strategy, never engage aircraft, avoid diving deep, always look for a way to regain the initiiative thinking "why shouldn't I go to periscope depth NOW and dish out some punishment." I also play the fleet boat with German tactics emphasizing constant bearing techniques and shooting from extreme close range. In fact the genesis of the Dick O'Kane attack was discussions with SH3 U-Boat jockeys.

There are many other items that made the U-Boat inferior than what I pulled quickly off the top of my head in my first post. The most important was the lack of training for the too many boats. A huge proportion of U-Boats were sunk with zero or one kills. I don't think that was a reflection on the capability of the boat itself, but on the frantic turning out of incompetent new crews. It's like baseball. When you have too many players you dilute the talent pool and lower the effectiveness of your game.

The handwriting was on the wall as early as 1942. The U-Boats were rampant but they failed to sink enough tonnage to offset new ship building. The Battle of the Atlantic was effectively over even before Allied ASW techniques got so good. From a strategic point of view the U-Boats could be almost ignored.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Reaves

I enojyed this thread and the information in it. Very interesting.


And the SPitfire is better than 109 and Mustang...

/runs

The Spitfire is a beautiful bird. I have seen a Spitfire(Super Marine) and Mustang fly. Both are extremely powerful and extremely deadly in the right hands. The 109 is a nice bird also. I'm more inclined to agree with your statement.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by jazman

Fleet Boats:

1. Ice Cream Machines
2. Washing Machines
3. Showers
4. Fryers
5. Shaving

Luxury yachts!

Ice cream machines were make shift churns and not standard equipment.

Washing Machines....not used, water was as precious for the American batteries as it was for the Germans and their batteries

Showers...see above

Fryers....yep, boat had refrigeration also. Just as the Army marches on it's stomach the Navy makes way on their stomach. Plus, it was a selling point to recruit! All will say the food on the submarines was darn good.

Shaving...see washing machines and showers.

Luxury yachts? Perhaps, 4 Fairbanks diesels rated at 1600hp each would certainly put them in the yacht category. So would the air conditioning!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

@ Krauter: You might want to find a copy of War Beneath The Sea, by Peter Padfield. He gives a nice overview of every nation's submarine efforts; how they developed and what they accomplished. It doesn't go as deep as some others, but it really gives a feel for what the aims of the different navies were and how their technologies, both sub and ASW, developed.

A fair to good reference base....and here ends my involvement

[msalama]

In fact, they couldn't touch the US in any meaningful way!

They tried however, and even had some initial success. Google "Operation Drumbeat" for details.

It was nothing less than an act of suicide which resulted directly in the demise of the Third Reich.

Directly? Baloney. It's of course true that the U.S. industrial might helped the Allies tremendously, but what really was decisive in the defeat of Nazis was Hitler's stupid decision to open a second front in the East and the bloodbath that ensued. Google "Operation Barbarossa" for details.

Y'know, Robbins, for a self-confessed non-nationalist you sometimes sound like one a lot nevertheless

[Ducimus]