US fleet boats - best frontline sub of ww2?

[Freiwillige]

Cheerleading? Im just debating the facts as I understand them and honoring the commitment and sacrafice of the German military. I would also defend England, Astrailia, Canada and my home the Great US of A if anybody were to try and talk down their performance in battle. Politics is Politics and I hate Politics. But military men and history thats something I can understand.

Also just to play devils advocate. Beating France in 1940 was actually an amazing acheivment that none thought possable. France was the largest military in the west far larger than England and America even put together! But Blitzkreig was born and a smaller German army wiped France off the war map in 6 weeks.

And the Russians coment. It was the German army again teaching lessons and it was the Russians who looked like amateurs. It was only the lend lease supply of once again America that gave the Russian army much needed supplies to first survive and then overthrow the German army. They say that the Russian Army was only mechinised to any extent because of the hundreds of thousands of trucks we sent them. Not to mention 8,000 frontline combat fighters, 100+ octane fuel
tons and tons of communications wire, radios. It can almost be said that we Americans built the russian army! Well we at least modernised it!

And the German invasion of the soviet Union cost Russia 20 million dead to Germanys 7 million fighting on all sides.

[Gino]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

No I was the one who said that their entire fleet, both surface and submarine, except for a small portion for coastal defense, was useless. You can't attack Russia from the sea and that was their real aim.

Duh? I was never aware that Hitler had any plans to attack the Sovjet Union from the sea? Where did you get that idea from?
Ever read His (Mein) Kampf? He doesn't talk about attacking Russia from the sea. There he states that he wants Living Space in the east, that's what it was all about.
Mind that Hitler was first seen (early thirties) as a great guy by many country leaders.
None of whom had read his book (probably because it's actually unreadable, I tried but only after several attempts I could chew through the crap).
Then when the moron got away with annexing the Rhineland, Austria and parts of Tsjechia he may well have thought that attacking Poland would also have no response from both France and the UK.
Luckily Chamberlain was not as pussyfooted as Hitler (and his bunch of criminals) thought.
So, when Chamberlain declared war (and not Churchill as many people believe) it came as a huge surprise. But even then he thought that he could force the UK in a peace treaty by blockading them, and sending his 'glorious' Luftwaffe across the Canal. The whole 'strategy' of blockading the UK came from Doenitz and Raeder. They actually believed they could pull it off with only 300 boats. Wrong, even when they did (1943?) have them it didn't work. Why? Because the British had actually learned from WW1, and these two idiots apparently not. By the way, I still cannot come up with a good reason why they shouldn't have have hanged Doenitz after the war. He bloody well deserved it!

I also agree that Germany didn't have a chance to win. Merely, because Roosevelt and Churchill both recognized the menace for the world of a Greater Germany. Therefore, I think Roosevelt was absolutely right to say: Germany first. Although that opinion was not shared by a lot of american politicians. That's why he had to 'bend' some rules.
Fighting a two front war was well within his capabilities. Japan needed to get all its raw materials from abroad. And being an island it would only be a matter of time before they would stop moving.

BUT...The original question was: Is the U-boat better than the Fleet submarine? I agree with Rockin Robbins that the U-boat was not better, quite the opposite actually. The Fleet subs were more advanced than the U-boats, and indeed had a bigger 'punch'. Both services had their torpedo failures, poor command decision etc. But it was the better organized, and more flexible Silent Service that got the best results. Even with all the mistakes and blunders made they still pulled it off. The germans showed how submarine war fare had to be done (Rudel taktik etc), but it was the US that proved that the theory was right!

In an earlier post I stated that the area of operation also has to be taken into account. I still believe that true. But technology wise the Fleetsub wins.

By the way, what is interesting is that innovation wise the germans looked better. Mainly, because of the rapidly changing situation in the Atlantic they had to come up with newly designed boats. Something that the US didn't really have to do, since they were already winning. So, the germans had to come up with the type XXI etc., which (astonishingly...) was a diesel electric, more luxurious, six tubes forward...Hmmm, which submarine had that also? Oh yeah the Porpoise class Fleetsubmarine built in 1934...


groetjes,

[joegrundman]

but gino, those features you mention are hardly the defining characteristics of the type XX1 and XXIII, are they?

[Gino]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

but gino, those features you mention are hardly the defining characteristics of the type XX1 and XXIII, are they?

Nah, not really. But, it does show that the germans used technology which was already used by the US in the Thirties, and from that point 'innovated' their design. Thus making an improved Fleet boat if you like, which the US then used to build their new subs after the war... In their design the germans indeed made some interesting things, like the Nibelungen machine (making it possible to attack with torpedoes from a greater depth) and the Walther propulsion system (which even today find its way in the german subs)
Mind that the Snorkel was not a german invention. Also mind that the Fleetsubs, when Guppied came very close to the XXI speeds (doing this from memory, too lazy to walk to my library...) So, they only had to be 'upgraded'. Again this tells me that the Fleetsub was technologically way beyond the VIIC and the IX types.

groetjes,

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Gino

. So, the germans had to come up with the type XXI etc., which (astonishingly...) was a diesel electric, more luxurious, six tubes forward...Hmmm, which submarine had that also? Oh yeah the Porpoise class Fleetsubmarine built in 1934...

Last I checked the Porpoise had 4 front tubes and two rear.
You also forget to mention the automatic loading system of the XXI that could reload all 6 torpedoes within 5 minutes. The extreme speed it could go while being submerged, its maximum dive depth and it's agility. Now show me those features on a Porpoise.

[Red Lord of Chaos]

Bismark and Tirpitz were wasted in the role they wound up in but that was due to Herr Adolf losing focus and invading Norway. They were designed to fight their way across the Channel and support a landing on Britain. However when the moment came the Kriegsmarine wasn't upto it still recovering from the Norway invasion. If that had occured the U-Boat war wouldn't have happened.
Plan B was for the Luftwaffe to knock out GB which it threatened to do so during the Battle of Britain in 1940, before getting distracted by London and starting the Blitz.
The U-Boats were Plan C.
If the KM had been more successful during the Happy Times (had more/better boats) they could have forced Britain to sue for peace.
Hitler's habit of getting distracted (by Norway, Greece, Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Panther Tanks) ultimately won the war in Europe for the Allies.

[Gino]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Last I checked the Porpoise had 4 front tubes and two rear.
You also forget to mention the automatic loading system of the XXI that could reload all 6 torpedoes within 5 minutes. The extreme speed it could go while being submerged, its maximum dive depth and it's agility. Now show me those features on a Porpoise.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean to say that the Porpoise already had those features you mention. Of course not. What I meant to say is that the Fleetsubs that were Guppied (i.e. upgraded) after the war, came very close to, or were even better than the XXI. So, the fleetsubs 'only' had to go through an upgrade program to get the same speeds as the XXI, whereas the XXI was a newly designed boat.

Some facts (this time I made my walk to my library )
I give you the numbers for maximum surfaced speed, and maximum submerged speed:
XXI: 15.6 knots / 15 knots.
Guppy I: 17 - 18 kn./ 15 kn.
Guppy II: 17 - 18 kn. / 15 kn.
Guppy III: 17 kn / 14 kn.
Still, keep in mind that the Guppies were 'old' fllet boats that had 'some bodywork done'. (pimp my boat )

USS ALbacore, that was built as a new design in 1952-53 already did 20+ knots submerged. (surf. 25 kn). The Albacore was based on Guppy and XXI, so maybe that is a bit poluted data there.

As for the automatic torpedo loading feature the XXI had. Guess what? The Dutch submarines O-19 and O-20 (commissioned in 1938) already had a half automatic torpedo loading system. They also were the first submarines with a snorkel!
It could be that the germans used the plans of the new dutch submarines, some of them were captured in 1940, to design the XXI.

groetjes,

[Schroeder]

Well my data of the XXI (a pamphlet from the Wilhelm Bauer U 2540) says that the maximun surface speed is 18,1 knots (this is with diesels and electric motors, diesels only is the 15,6knots you mentioned).
Maximum submerged speed is written to be 17,2 knots.




Hmm... no maximum dive depth mentioned. Obviously the oceans aren't deep enough to determin it.:rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gino

Duh? I was never aware that Hitler had any plans to attack the Sovjet Union from the sea? Where did you get that idea from?
Ever read His (Mein) Kampf? He doesn't talk about attacking Russia from the sea. There he states that he wants Living Space in the east, that's what it was all about.

Flag! Bad Sentence Structure. 15 yard penalty! Repeat 3rd down! Of course the sentence should have read "You can't attack Russia from the sea and attacking Russia was their real aim." I was presuming that it was so obvious that attack of Russia from the sea was not possible that nobody could entertain that notion. Sloppy sentence structure, to be sure.

Originally Posted by Gino

skipping over a lot of great stuff....So, the germans had to come up with the type XXI etc., which (astonishingly...) was a diesel electric, more luxurious, six tubes forward...Hmmm, which submarine had that also? Oh yeah the Porpoise class Fleetsubmarine built in 1934...


groetjes,

A brilliant comment! The Type XXI was in most part an imitation of the American Fleet Boat. By the way, since the Type XXI is a blank slate with no actual accomplishments, it is traditional for Germanofiles to worship at its altar as a supreme game changer.....if only.....but.....then. Let me remind you that there were no trained crews, the reliability of the boat was not established and with no ability to support the things at sea, the Type XXI was doomed anyway. Hitler had already made a multiplicity of fatal mistakes, any one of which was sufficient to cause defeat.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Flag! Bad Sentence Structure. 15 yard penalty! Repeat 3rd down! Of course the sentence should have read "You can't attack Russia from the sea and attacking Russia was their real aim." I was presuming that it was so obvious that attack of Russia from the sea was not possible that nobody could entertain that notion. Sloppy sentence structure, to be sure.

A brilliant comment! The Type XXI was in most part an imitation of the American Fleet Boat. By the way, since the Type XXI is a blank slate with no actual accomplishments, it is traditional for Germanofiles to worship at its altar as a supreme game changer.....if only.....but.....then. Let me remind you that there were no trained crews, the reliability of the boat was not established and with no ability to support the things at sea, the Type XXI was doomed anyway. Hitler had already made a multiplicity of fatal mistakes, any one of which was sufficient to cause defeat.

no it isn't a brilliant comment, RR, and you are now resorting to the sort of fanboyism you decry.

The late war german designs were eagerly pored over by the allies and are well known for being tremendously influential in post war submarine development by both the allies and the russians.

And this is very simply because the most salient features of those designs were not those of fleetboats.

[Rockin Robbins]

You are confusing the most salient points with the most interesting points. The most interesting point of the Type XXI was a return to the S-Boat-like emphasis on underwater instead of surface hydrodynamics. This resulted an another boat with the S-Boat's mix of better underwater than surface performance. As has already been said, the only thing necessary for a fleet boat to exceed the performance parameters the the Type XXI was to change the shape of the hull. However, that would have hurt the fleet boat's performance in war.

Captain Eugene Fluckey worked out the system that worked best. That was based on the conception of the submarine being a PT boat (with much better weaponry!) that could submerge when it was absolutely necessary for the shortest possible time. Targets were best developed on the surface on diesel power. That way they could cover many times the number square miles per day of ocean surface in quest for contacts. It also ensured that when contact was made, battle started with fully charged batteries.

Had the fleet boat been able to make 17 knots underwater, those who chose the ostrich plan would have had more ammunition to defend their policy of see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. American subs would have been much less successful at finding the enemy and much better at not being spotted. That would have been putting the cart before the horse. The primary job of the submarine is to destroy the enemy. The secondary aim is to survive to do it again.

Our radar could already spot a snorkel on the surface. But the poor Type XXI had no way of knowing the bombs were falling. It would have been a slaughter modeled very well by Ducimus' evil airplanes and the resultant changes in tactics that are necessary to survive them. The ostrich method would have worked no better for the Type XXI at 18 knots than it did for the Fleet Boats at 9.

As Gino has already shown, the other systems of the Type XXI were already in place and proved for reliability and performance in the American Fleet Boat except for the auto torpedo loading, which was another interesting point.

The Gato class of submarines with six forward and four aft torpedo tubes was first produced in 1941. So the Americans througout the war had submarines carrying ten torpedo tubes. Finally, in 1945 the Germans deployed their first submarine taking enough firepower to battle to make a difference. As Erich Topp himself said in a well-publicized interview after the war, the Type XXI was not the magic bullet that could have won the war, or even the Battle of the Atlantic. And that's assuming that it did not have any crippling defects that only combat might have revealed. It was never a proven war machine. It could well have been as delicate and finicky as the vaunted Tiger tank: wonderful in concept, almost useless in practice.

[Gino]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

And this is very simply because the most salient features of those designs were not those of fleetboats.

True, but they were also not only germans inventions. The greater underwater speed was already known for years at all submarine building nations. It was just because of the role that was thought for submarines that the idea was not worked out to the max. When germany was losing the submarine war in the Atlantic, they had to innovate their new boats to adapt to the situation. This meant snorkels, all over welded hull, greater underwater speed, better silent running, faster torpedoloading (15-20 min for a "total refill", by the way, not 5), radar, anti-'anti-submarine' defense system and maybe some more. That should sum it up.

But, if you look at all the things I mentioned here, there is actually nothing there that the Allies didn't already know off. The only reason they didn't use the majority of the ideas was very simple...they were winning the war.

Of course did they have a look at the XXI boats after the war. Better to use a free worked out design, than going through the trouble of desiging it yourself!
To give you an example: Have you ever seen photos of a Fleetsub firing a Loon missile, after the war? A Loon is just an american built V1 rocket. Again, better to use a worked out design and innovate it, than going through the trouble of starting from scratch.
With the captured XXI boats it was the same thing. I think that the stories about how the XXI could have changed the war are greatly exaggerated. Even when the germans would have had ample supplies to build them with trained crews, it would only have been a matter of time. The war was already lost in 1939 by starting it.
RR is right in stating that we are talking about, what if...if only..etc. That's using hindsight, and trying to convert designs on paper to a situation that never existed:

Example: maximum dive depth for the XXI: 270m, but after doing docktests on the prototype they found 330m feasable. The design with Panzermaterial was calculated as 600m (source: Bodo Herzog: 60 Jahre Deutsche Uboote 1906-1966)
Since the XXI building program was under a lot of stress due to shortages, none of the few boats that made it to the front could have reached those depths.
The trouble starts where people start believing that all the XXI boats were capable of diving to 600m. That's where myths take over from reality.
I must admit, that years ago I also thought that the XXI were great new designs, but after reading many books on the subject I can only come to the conclusions I stated here and before: Nothing realy special.

groetjes,

[tater]

I don't think the u-boats would have resulted in the UK "suing for peace." In general, axis fantasy about their enemies capitulating was ill-founded.

I think it would have simply hastened the US entry into the war.

[Rockin Robbins]

Now, Gino, I still don't come the the conclusion that the Type XXI was "nothing special." They are the most beautiful submarine design of the war in my book, as much German war machinery was menacingly beautiful, inspiring designs in Battlestar Galactica, the Star Wars movies and other future military fantasies. When you think "tank" you think of something that looks like a Tiger. When you think "dive bomber" you think Stuka. If looks could kill they would have won, hands down.

The Germans had style. Unfortunately, in war there are no style points. Ugly wins there, just fine.

[Torplexed]

It's one of those topics that has plenty of ammunition for endless debate. I've lost track of how many similar threads there have been over the years.

If there had been more U-Boats at the start, if the advanced types had come into service sooner, if the Germans had figured out the British were reading their mail. Seems like the proponents of a U-Boat victory need too many 'ifs.' Sort of reminds me of the Confederacy's 'Lost Cause' arguments.

However they all ignore the realities of the German political situation. Hitler's navy was always going to be the neglected stepchild to his more highly-favored army and air force. Hitler would have had to be a different person for it to be otherwise. If Hitler had any love for U-Boats, its was that they were cheap compared to the capital ships his admirals wanted, and he thought so poorly of. However, like Rommel's vaunted Afrika Korps they were useful in his eyes in that they kept the British tied up, while he turned the vast majority of Germany's industrial and military resources east to reconquer what the Kaiser briefly had in 1918. A vast eastern empire stretching to the oilfields of the Caucasus. Lebensraum in the form of a huge Ukrainian breadbasket. One of Hitler's grand obsessions was with autarky--total national economic autonomy, and in his mind that was only to be found in a conquest of the adjacent Soviet Union, not in tenuous maritime links to an overseas empire like the British had, and Germany once had and too easily lost.