Dubb-Ya and waterboarding

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Platapus

The United States is no different from the majority of the countries of the world. In our history we have our good, bad, and ugly sides.

Sure. And America will recover from this as it did from vietnam. But it's going to be a lot of work.

Originally Posted by August

Why are you implying that we killed all those Iraqis? You know that isn't true.

No comprende.

I did not say who killed how many - because I don't know it - the research on that will probably begin after the hostilities - but for me every human live in Iraq counts as much as every american one on 9/11.

What I'm saying is a lot of people will open their eyes when they see the numbers and compare them to the event that actually caused it, i.e. 9/11.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Replace "Sharia" with "democracy" and imagine an Afghan talking to an Iraqi.
Anyway, Letum is not talking about "satisfying" anyone, least of all anyone connected with Al-Qaeda. He's talking about removing the support for such ideology, which torture does not do. Torturing suspects confirms everything Al-Qaeda says about the United States, and the West in macro. The "appeasement" argument is easy to run to, if AL was still around I'd say we'd have seen a picture of Chamberlain by now. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

It wasn't a problem 75 years ago because this kind of violent Islam is a relatively new phenomenon. Sayyid Qutb and all that. I do hope that the "they" doesn't refer to all of Islam.

Classy.

You've said everything that needs to be said IMO Tchocky.

[DeepIron]

I can highly recommend Stephen Kinzer's "Overthrow" as a good historical examination of this.

Thx for the recommendation! I'll have to give it a go...

[GlobalExplorer]

Ditto. Will head over to amazon for the book.

[August]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Sure. And America will recover from this as it did from vietnam. But it's going to be a lot of work.

No comprende.

I did not say who killed how many - because I don't know it - the research on that will probably begin after the hostilities - but for me every human live in Iraq counts as much as every american one on 9/11.

What I'm saying is a lot of people will open their eyes when they see the numbers and compare them to the event that actually caused it, i.e. 9/11.

So you think 9-11 caused the Iraq war? Not 12 years of violated cease fire agreements, not Saddams own declarations that he had wmd and intended to use it, not correcting the wrong done to the Shiites and Kurds when we encouraged them to to revolt against Saddam in '91 and subsequently abandoned them?

You can play the blame America game all you want but you cannot ignore the fact that the great majority of violent Iraqi deaths before AND during this war have been at the hands of other Iraqis.

[SUBMAN1]

One thing is great in society though - the stupid get weeded out of the gene pool. I can see this is going to happen here too.

-S

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by August

So you think 9-11 caused the Iraq war? Not 12 years of violated cease fire agreements, not Saddams own declarations that he had wmd and intended to use it, not correcting the wrong done to the Shiites and Kurds when we encouraged them to to revolt against Saddam in '91 and subsequently abandoned them?

You can play the blame America game all you want but you cannot ignore the fact that the great majority of violent Iraqi deaths before AND during this war have been at the hands of other Iraqis.

I never said that Saddam did not kill people or that all these people were directyl killed by americans. I didnt even say if I believe the number 600.000 isn't inflated by at least a magnitude of ten.

But the cease fire argument is your last straw. I'm finding it obvious that 9/11 was causal to the war in Iraq, which was causal to the death of tens of thousands Iraqis. Which makes 9/11 quite a minor incident.

[DeepIron]

So you think 9-11 caused the Iraq war?

Yep. Or at least, added impetus to it on the American side... Hmm, we get attacked on 9/01 and we "declare war" on Iraq in what, 03/02? Five months?

Not 12 years of violated cease fire agreements, not Saddams own declarations that he had wmd and intended to use it, not correcting the wrong done to the Shiites and Kurds when we encouraged them to to revolt against Saddam in '91 and subsequently abandoned them?

We encouraged the Iraqis to revolt and then left them in the "dust" in '91. So, junior goes back to "finish the job" based on US Patriotic furor over 9/11, his "Axis of Evil" pronouncement, "terrorists are hiding in Iraq" lie, and unconfirmed intel regarding WMDs...

You can play the blame America game all you want but you cannot ignore the fact that the great majority of violent Iraqi deaths before AND during this war have been at the hands of other Iraqis.

I would certainly agree. Too bad ol' Dubb-Ya didn't have the forethought to see how Islamic factional violence would blossom once the main deterrrent, Saddam Hussein and the Baathist party were nullified...

BTW, I'm not arguing that Hussein should not have been tried in the World Court. I'm saying the Bush Administration, with it's brainless "Shock and Awe" tactics, have created a much more "lethal" situation than if we had patiently moved forward through diplomatic and economic channels.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

I would certainly agree. Too bad ol' Dubb-Ya didn't have the forethought to see how Islamic factional violence would blossom once the main deterrrent, Saddam Hussein and the Baathist party were nullified...

This was exactly what people with first hand experience in the region had predicted, like the French-German foreign expert Peter Scholl-Latour. I am sure the CIA gave ample warning to Dubb-Ya, as it did to his father.

[August]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

But the cease fire argument is your last straw. I'm finding it obvious that 9/11 was causal to the war in Iraq, which was causal to the death of tens of thousands Iraqis. Which makes 9/11 quite a minor incident.

You can "find" whatever you want but 9-11 didn't cause the war in Iraq. We'd been on the path to war with Iraq ever since the end of the first Gulf war.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

You can "find" whatever you want but 9-11 didn't cause the war in Iraq. We'd been on the path to war with Iraq ever since the end of the first Gulf war.

I would go back a little further than that.
England has been at war with or occupying Iraq for over 45 out of the last 90 years.

[August]

[quote=DeepIron]

Hmm, we get attacked on 9/01 and we "declare war" on Iraq in what, 03/02? Five months?

We invaded Iraq in March 20th 2003. You are an entire year off.

We encouraged the Iraqis to revolt and then left them in the "dust" in '91. So, junior goes back to "finish the job" based on US Patriotic furor over 9/11, his "Axis of Evil" pronouncement, "terrorists are hiding in Iraq" lie, and unconfirmed intel regarding WMDs...

Quite the selective memory you have there. Have you already forgot how in 2000, Iraq shielded Abu Musab al—Zarqawi, who was killed in a June 2006 American strike in North Baghdad. How in September 2002, Zarqawi returned there from Syria, via Jordan, to lead the terrorist insurgency that now continues without him.

As for "unconfirmed intel regarding WMD's" What, 12 years of intelligence reports, commissioned by both parties and Saddams own statements, let alone his history of using chemical weapons isn't good enough for you?

Oh that's right. This is about making Bush look bad, not about discussing the truth right?

Too bad ol' Dubb-Ya didn't have the forethought to see how Islamic factional violence would blossom once the main deterrrent, Saddam Hussein and the Baathist party were nullified...

Right, keeping the murderous dictator and his henchmen in power is always preferable to taking a chance by liberating an oppressed people. Is that what you're saying?

BTW, I'm not arguing that Hussein should not have been tried in the World Court. I'm saying the Bush Administration, with it's brainless "Shock and Awe" tactics, have created a much more "lethal" situation than if we had patiently moved forward through diplomatic and economic channels.

Yeah i've read about those diplomatic and economic channels. UN officials lining their pockets with payoff money from Saddam so that he could refit his military with funds diverted from the "food for oil" program. Now that was a recipie for success...

[DeepIron]

We invaded Iraq in March 20th 2003. You are an entire year off.

Yup. Your right. My bad...

As for "unconfirmed intel regarding WMD's" What, 12 years of intelligence reports, commissioned by both parties and Saddams own statements, let alone his history of using chemical weapons isn't good enough for you?

Did they find them? No... good enough for me. And according to a CIA source that interviewed Hussein, he said "there were no WMDs. It was a ruse to keep the Iranians at bay". Now how can more than a decade of intelligence miss that little fact? We scratched around in the sand and when they weren't brought into the light of day, someone said, "they moved them". What a lot of horse manure... Really good intelligence would have known the most likely hiding places IF the stuff had ever existed...

Right, keeping the murderous dictator and his henchmen in power is always preferable to taking a chance by liberating an oppressed people. Is that what you're saying?

To quote Bush senior: "Better the devil we know." He saw what would happen back in '91. And I guess you're somehow satisfied that thousands have died, and continue to die, in this ongoing conflict. Hooboy! Gotta say the quality of life in Iraq is right up there these days! Hundred of thousands displaced, even more living on the edge of their existence, huzzah! Give me occupation!

Yeah i've read about those diplomatic and economic channels. UN officials lining their pockets with payoff money from Saddam so that he could refit his military with funds diverted from the "food for oil" program. Now that was a recipie for success...

Yeah, well bud, you'd better look around the good ol' US of A if you don't think defence and other American contractors ain't doin' the same.

So, be rest assured, this violent and senseless war WILL go on. Bush's legacy to all of us and our children will be not only the war, but the fiscal burden, and the "police state" that will surely rise to "protect us from the terrorists".

[August]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Yup. Your right. My bad...

So in other words you have no clue of what you are talking about. 5 months indeed. How old were you at the time that you would forget an entire year like that?

Did they find them? No... good enough for me. And according to a CIA source that interviewed Hussein, he said "there were no WMDs. It was a ruse to keep the Iranians at bay". Now how can more than a decade of intelligence miss that little fact? We scratched around in the sand and when they weren't brought into the light of day, someone said, "they moved them". What a lot of horse manure... Really good intelligence would have known the most likely hiding places IF the stuff had ever existed...

Please, the Japanese sailed an entire fleet right up to our doorstep in Hawaii without our intelligence finding out about it and that's even with being able to read some of their codes. Our intel gathering capabilities had increased 100 fold by Vietnam but we were unable to discern an entire NVA underground installation with miles of tunnels, workshops, barracks and hospitals just below our base at Chu Chi. You act like gathering intel is like looking up a definition in the dictionary. Sorry that just isn't reality.

Saddam went out of his way to make the entire world, not just the Iranians, think he had WMD's. Indeed he had the capability to quickly restart those programs just as soon as we stopped keeping him under the magnifying glass. You threaten a cop with a gun its not his fault if he shoots you even if the gun turns out to be a toy.

To quote Bush senior: "Better the devil we know." He saw what would happen back in '91. And I guess you're somehow satisfied that thousands have died, and continue to die, in this ongoing conflict. Hooboy! Gotta say the quality of life in Iraq is right up there these days! Hundred of thousands displaced, even more living on the edge of their existence, huzzah! Give me occupation!

You wouldn't be saying that if you were a Kurd or Shiite, but I guess the term "give me liberty or give me death" isn't a creed you would subsribe to.

Yeah, well bud, you'd better look around the good ol' US of A if you don't think defence and other American contractors ain't doin' the same.

Paying off Saddam? Why would you pay off a dead man?

So, be rest assured, this violent and senseless war WILL go on. Bush's legacy to all of us and our children will be not only the war, but the fiscal burden, and the "police state" that will surely rise to "protect us from the terrorists".

Hey there is always Canada right?

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

So in other words you have no clue of what you are talking about. 5 months indeed. How old were you at the time that you would forget an entire year like that?

oh, common, thats hitting a little low.