French and British Sonar

One major diffirence are the sound processing methods employed. The United States uses LINEAR (SAWS) processing which basically uses computer sofrware to filter what the operator see's/hears while the U.S. also uses DIMUS, most foreign nations use DIMUS almost exclusively.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Tom Clancy is an author who has toured military units. He has given lectures, but I'll bet his biography plays this up quite a bit. Unless anybody knows he has a security clearance (which I doubt), I wouldn't say he as any more knowledge than anyone on this forum when it comes to military matters. As someone mentioned before, Boy Scouts take short cruises on SSBNs. That doesn't make them military experts. All the stuff Tom Clancy uses is public domain and ancedotal. Nonclassified stuff.

PD

[JamesT73J]

Originally Posted by Henson

This argument has lost the original point however. I refer you to my original post on the subject, on page one posted on 22 June. American sonar processing and CCS are superior when it comes to tracking submarines, but are probably quite a bit behind when it comes to the littorals, where modern naval warfare is waged. It would not surprise me at all if other nations have a far better grasp of the environment than the current crop of midlevel US submarine officers. It is also obvious to me, having some background in the subject of combat control systems, that the US has been struggling with high contact density environments for a long time, and are considerably behind some allies in that regard (The german CCS is really excellent in those situations). That is why when you read in the newspapers that a submarine has collided with another vessel it is nearly always a US submarine, and not a danish, french, german or indian submarine.

We are improving...but make no mistake: while our expertise at tracking other submarines is unsurpassed, in other aspects of USW we are playing catch-up. Nowhere is that more evident than it is at the training command where I work. I see crap here in my trainers that would curl your toes.

That's an extremely healthy attitude. Is that representative?

[Henson]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

That's an extremely healthy attitude. Is that representative?

Probably not. Our midlevel officers (LT, LTCDR) for a large part don't know what they don't know about USW tactics. My current job is to help rectify that. I overstate the case because I see this stuff every day, but our officers are nucs first, submariners second. I think recent events (read: groundings and collisions) have proven the danger in that.

The US Submarine Force is the best community in our Navy, and the best sub force int he world, but even we have weak points. Right now that is learning to operate in new environments. We are improving our tactics, weapons, and methods at a very strong pace, and the great thing about nucs is they learn fast. We're still better at operating in ANY waters than any short-term enemy is, and at this point that is what is important. The new BYG-1/BQQ-10(ARCI) system is probably the technical side of answering our problems there, and the methods, tactics, and training to deal with high contact densitites are already in place.

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Tom Clancy is an author who has toured military units. He has given lectures, but I'll bet his biography plays this up quite a bit. Unless anybody knows he has a security clearance (which I doubt), I wouldn't say he as any more knowledge than anyone on this forum when it comes to military matters. As someone mentioned before, Boy Scouts take short cruises on SSBNs. That doesn't make them military experts. All the stuff Tom Clancy uses is public domain and ancedotal. Nonclassified stuff.

PD

At least this thread has gotten back on topic...which is good to see.

I wont answer anymore Clancy stuff, except...Clancy in one book writes (in the acknowledgments part) thanks to...."Fred and his pals at USSS (United States Secret Service)...so yes, of course. He knows just as much as you and me. Do you know any Freds at the Secret Service?

[FERdeBOER]

Just finishing this becasuse is completly off-topic and I'm sorry for that.

Originally Posted by Kurushio

stic ships.
No, the United States never had doctrine to win a first-strike non-conventional (or nuclear) war.

Almost every war plan on any area on any country is based on "attack first". And in modern combat is specially important because the power of the weapons.
That's because Israel is still a country. THey knew the enemy (Egypt, Jordania...) was preparing to attack and they attacked first.

Originally Posted by Kurushio

The Soviets on the other hand did have scenarios for winning a nuclear war...hence the Cuban Missile Crisis etc..

The Americans placed nuclear missiles on Turkey first.

Originally Posted by Kurushio

I can't honestly say I ever read much about Spain in any of Tom's books? When was Spain mentioned and why does he treat your people/nation unfairly? The only one I can think of is in Rainbow 6 (the book) when the terrorists take those people hostage in the amusement park? Can't remember saying anything bad about Spain though.

"OP- Center Balance of Power" (with the colaboration of Steve Pieczenik) is all about Spain. And is completly wrong about the Spanish organization about military and civil corps. (Guardia Civil specially in the book).
No, he doesn't say anithyng bad about Spain or Spanish (in overall), but he sais a lot of wrong statements. Don't believe anything he says about Spanish terrorists because the real ones are completely diffrent.

Originally Posted by Kurushio

Vini, Vidi, Vici means we came, we saw, we conquered. That has little to do with Iraq to be honest where it was more like we came, we conquered and then all hell broke loose.

I was just joking

Returning to the original topic, Spanish Navy (called Armada), has a lot of agreements with United States about naval suplies. We have Perry's, missiles, recently AEGIS system... but almost all our submarines and part of surface ships are equiped with a mixture of French (and little Netherland and German) and self-made technollogy. Why? because our tactical scenario is about litoral waters. Our submarine weapon is mainly designed for protecting our coast, not attack. And in that area, the Spanish Defense Ministery thinks that French technollogy is better. In deep waters... US rules. In litoral ones...

[Orm]

[quote=XabbaRus
Have you ever read Tom Clancy's SSN? What a pile of tripe. The infallible USS Cheyenne, I fell asleep after chapter 2.[/quote]

Sorry, I had to come back to this discussion, it is so funny now.

Yes, about this book, I thought I beginning to be crazy. It was unbelievable how infallible this sub was. Honestly, I cannot understand that Clancy did not see by himself when writing the novel that a book lacking total suspense cannot be read till the end. I was myself falling asleep.

About the other books, I think Clancy was quite good at the beginning, but after “The sum of all the fears”, the quality went downward. Take the “Bear and the Dragon”, I counted that while the Russians and the Chinese were losing thousands of men on the battlefield during combats in Siberia, the American, which I recall, had quite a lot of troops on the same ground and were also engaged in combats, lost a jeep with two or three men for all the action. That’s Clancy logic. :rotfl:

FerdeBoer: The Op-Centre books were not written by Clancy.

Orm: SSN was a book written as a game tie-in. Was supposed to tie in with the game, you know? Games are different from real life?

...and as for laughing at all the Chinese and Russians dying in Siberia in the book The Bear and the Dragon...didn't Finland kill an enourmous amount of Russians even though they were out numbered? You should know...shame on you.

What about the Spartans...? 200 killed something like 30,000...

[Orm]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

FerdeBoer: The Op-Centre books were not written by Clancy.

Orm: SSN was a book written as a game tie-in. Was supposed to tie in with the game, you know? Games are different from real life?

...and as for laughing at all the Chinese and Russians dying in Siberia in the book The Bear and the Dragon...didn't Finland kill an enourmous amount of Russians even though they were out numbered? You should know...shame on you.

What about the Spartans...? 200 killed something like 30,000...

Sorry, but if my location is Finland, usually, my location is sometimes Paris, France. So, I am not Finnish but a good old French or froggy, proud to be one. :p I thought that you would have guess it with my mails.
At least, I must admit that I admire you toughness in you ideas.

@Kurushio
200 killed 30.000? Maybe, but the location was a little bit different at the Thermophylles.
Even in the night-battle against the chinese infantry the troops should have had more casualities.

[FERdeBOER]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

FerdeBoer: The Op-Centre books were not written by Clancy.

My book says clearly with capital letters: TOM CLANCY.
And then in small letters: with the colaboration of Steve Piezczenik.
In the "note for the Spanish edition" allways mention Clancy as the author of the book and doesn't says anything against.

If you don't want to count that book is no problem, Rainbow Six (named Operation Rainbow in Spain), also is wrong in many of the satements about Spain. No bad things, but wrong.

Tom Clancy did not write any of the Op-Centre books, the Splinter Cell books or the NetForce books. In fact Tom semi-retired from writing books, but is "forced" to occassionaly write one due to fan/publisher pressure.

Read this to see who wrote the NetForce series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_Op-Center

As I mentioned before, in Rainbow 6, Spain is hardly mentioned except at the amusement park where the terrorists take those people hostage. Don't see where he could've gone wrong...at the top of my head...he does mention Stuka dive bombers were used during the Spanish Civil War. And as far as I know, he's correct. So what did he say about Spain which is so wrong? I think he also mentions Spain is crap at football...is this what you mean? Though judging by the Spanish team's performance against France...:hmm:

(joking)

Edit: I just remembered in Rainbow 6 (the game) one of the best operators is a Spaniard. Seeing Clancy created the game as well as the book, I think you owe him an apology. Oh yeah...and what about in Clear and Present Danger when they form a Spanish speaking, latino squad of special forces to deal with the Colombians. And Ding Chavez is latino too....so please, let's not even start saying Tom has anything against Spanish/Latinos.

[FERdeBOER]

I repeat, I never said Clancy says bad things about Spanish, but wrong ones... I haven't to apollogice to him.
And yes, Arnavisca is my favourite team menber in Rainbow Six game

Unfortunatelly, the Spanish civil war was the field of training of the German army... and the Legion Condor and the bombing of Guernica is one of the worst pages in our history...
The famous Picasso picture "el Guernica" is a tribute to that...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting)


Well, that example about the Stukas is a great mistake: he invented the Park (the real is no in Barcelona, but in Tarragona, a city close), and he invented the atraction. There isn't any atraction in any Park in Spain about Stukas... so, Clancy invented the atraction and then he critics the Spanish for having bad memory and create an atraction about Stukas...

Rainbow Six begins with Spanish terrorists kidnaping an American 777!
That is one thing that Spanish terrorists never did. In fact, they have been allways very carefull about attacking foreign citizens in order to mantain the international opinion away.
And never kidnaped a plane. But is a novel, is not much important despite is suposed to be as acurate as possible to reality...

But then is when they say that the terrorist will be in a jail in America, and John Clark thinks that they (the terrorists) should consider themselves lucky because in Spain the thing would be worst!! Spanish jails are not famous precisely for being dangerous and the Spanish police is very carefull when dealing with terrorists because they use any sign of abuse of force to denounce torture...

And I will finish with this point because is completely off-topic and I'm sure many people is boring with this.

And yes, Spain lives with football. Is called here "el deporte Rey" (the King sport). I don't understand why, because we are world champions in handball, indoor-soccer, waterpolo, medallist in basket; F1, motoGP and Rallie and tennis champions... but the entire country paralizes when we play football!!
I do love football and i practice it. (well soccer for the Americans)
About the world cup... we decided to get Zidane his last oportunity...
(joking), I don't know why, but we allways go to World cups and Eurocups as one of the favourites... and allways go home after the first round...

FerdeBoer...I don't remember the beginning of Rainbow 6 and the "kidnapping" (I think you mean HIKACKING) of the 777. Though ETA are a real pain in the arse...and their cause is stupid (my opinion).
And yes, of course there is no theme-park in Barcelona. Clancy makes things up sometimes and remember the book had to tie-in with the game, because in the game the theme park is included also. So the Stuka bit was made up too...obviously.

By the way, how do you figure Spain is "world-champion" on MotoGP? I thought it was Rossi...an Italian? And Rally...isn't it Loeb a Frenchman? And tennis...surely tennis is a Swiss, Federer??? I'll give you F1 though...Alonso (in a French car...tihi).

[FERdeBOER]

Thanks for the correction and sorry for my English.

Alex Criville was 500cc Champion. Carlos Sainz was two times Rallie world champion, Rafael Nadal has won Federer all the matches this year... the point is that we are much better in a lot of sports before football (or soccer), but we still preffer football!

And Alonso drives a French car, but French is "only" the motor, the home of the Team is in England and the chasis also. And the most important... the hands are Spanish
Not to mention cyclists... because these are not good days for them...

And in my last atempt to returning the original topic... Does the Alonso's Reanult have best sonar than Schumacher ones? :hmm:

:rotfl: :rotfl: