So, where is the patch ? - Page 5

Dr.Sid · 09-02-05, 01:36 AM

Yet another .. doesn't russian active sonars seem to you next to useless ? They dont have time averaging so contact si always sunk in the noise.

There is also one old problem with all active sonars - you always hear returning ping even if the return is so weak it won't display. And you alwas hear it at full volume (you can't hear dim return). By the sound you can have rough range for the target, even if the target is at max active sonar range. You can count targets very far away (well, this can go wrong with bottom bounce). And I always get frustrated when you ping, I hear the return, but I don't see the dot on screen (very common especially with russian subs).

JamesT73J · 09-02-05, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Yet another .. doesn't russian active sonars seem to you next to useless ? They dont have time averaging so contact si always sunk in the noise.

There is also one old problem with all active sonars - you always hear returning ping even if the return is so weak it won't display. And you alwas hear it at full volume (you can't hear dim return). By the sound you can have rough range for the target, even if the target is at max active sonar range. You can count targets very far away (well, this can go wrong with bottom bounce). And I always get frustrated when you ping, I hear the return, but I don't see the dot on screen (very common especially with russian subs).

This goes back to SC, and is common to all platforms. Sonalysts did provide an explanation, I don't recall what it was though.

Amizaur · 09-02-05, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

There is also one old problem with all active sonars - you always hear returning ping even if the return is so weak it won't display. And you alwas hear it at full volume (you can't hear dim return). By the sound you can have rough range for the target, even if the target is at max active sonar range. You can count targets very far away (well, this can go wrong with bottom bounce). And I always get frustrated when you ping, I hear the return, but I don't see the dot on screen (very common especially with russian subs).

There is bug in active sonar in DW, it's acknowledged. It always detects everything on it's max range currently. And if you play with your screen contrast & gamma settings, you'll notice that you always (always for GRAM displays, almost always for submarine displays) can completly filter out the returns from the bacground even at max range !!! It's totally bugged

Second bad thing is what you said - always max volume ping return - even when you don't see enything (but I assure you that it's possible to filter it out) you hear the distance and by bcliking on varius bearings at this range eventually you can mark a contact.... totally unrealistic

Contact should appear every time when you click "mark" button, even if there is nothing in fact. This should be player's problem that if he clicks everywhere he would get contacts everywhere.

As for sails not detected by radar - with use of debugoutput it can be cleared if they are detected or not. Debugoutput calls every AI detection in the game. And I can tell you that the Kilo sail at 14m or so (that you can shoot SAMs) is NOT detected by AI units with radar. You can run like that all day completly safe from radar detection. Same for peri and masts - never seen debugoutput message of AI unit detecting sub by peri or mast. On the other hand when I tried to run with slightly exposed sail in MP game, I was sunk at once by P-3. For human players Kilo sail gives return on radar. Don't know for peri or masts, had no occasion to make MP test.
IIRC (but I may be wrong!) the Akula's sail is detected by AI units... so this would be Kilo-only bug. Maybe some value set wrong...

Molon Labe · 09-02-05, 08:59 AM

[quote="Amizaur"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Second bad thing is what you said - always max volume ping return - even when you don't see enything (but I assure you that it's possible to filter it out) you hear the distance and by bcliking on varius bearings at this range eventually you can mark a contact.... totally unrealistic

Contact should appear every time when you click "mark" button, even if there is nothing in fact. This should be player's problem that if he clicks everywhere he would get contacts everywhere.

Yes! Absofrackinlutely!

mike_espo · 09-02-05, 09:41 AM

Yes Amizaur, I got the exact same result: Although I can't get online......

I switched to the P-3 and had a foxtrot snorkeling.....did detect him with radar. However,AI is blind.....both visual and radar

LuftWolf · 09-02-05, 09:49 AM

Good information.

It's good to know that it isn't a bug with the actual game engine, but rather something that SCS put in for gameplay reasons. I'm pretty sure that's it, because the sensors can detect those objects, meaning that the AI could be made to fire on those detections, it's just that the game is hardcoded not to give a detection for AI platforms. That's my guess anyway.

SCS made some "interesting" gameplay calls with DW, so maybe they put that there so that players could fight ASW aircraft from submarines, the same reason they put in the SAM launcher in the first place, but they figured that in MP, air players wouldn't appreciate that.

My point is that before we get all mad at the game and start using words like "bug", "cheat", etc. it's good to have an understanding of what's entailed in producing the behavior.

Maybe I'm just sensitive to negative emoticons.

Fish · 09-02-05, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Yes Amizaur, I got the exact same result: Although I can't get online......

I switched to the P-3 and had a foxtrot snorkeling.....did detect him with radar. However,AI is blind.....both visual and radar

I doubt you are right there Mike_espo,

First pic you see a Akula with the sail above surface, next pick you see a orion who linked the Akula to me.

Amizaur · 09-02-05, 03:04 PM

But we don't know how the Akula was detected - by radar, visually or maybe ESM or IR :-).

Fish · 09-02-05, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amizaur

But we don't know how the Akula was detected - by radar, visually or maybe ESM or IR :-).

I asked but it want not say.

Pigfish · 09-02-05, 07:30 PM

Hello. In my experience be it an Akula, Kilo, LA or Seawolf I am completly invisable to AI aircraft with only my sail showing and all mast up. Sometimes for fun I will set up a shooting gallery where they just fly above me until I take them out.

Turn on your radar however-your toast.

Amizaur · 09-02-05, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

I asked but it want not say.

Try with -debugoutput enabled and DbgView active. I described how to use it somwhere on forums.

mike_espo · 09-02-05, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pigfish

Hello. In my experience be it an Akula, Kilo, LA or Seawolf I am completly invisable to AI aircraft with only my sail showing and all mast up. Sometimes for fun I will set up a shooting gallery where they just fly above me until I take them out.

Turn on your radar however-your toast.

Yep!

Exactly the same with me. My experience also..

Pigfish · 09-02-05, 08:46 PM

Im thinking its only a user sub, in use, that is invisable. An AI Seawolf etc CAN be picked up by other AI units.

Fish · 09-03-05, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pigfish

Im thinking its only a user sub, in use, that is invisable. An AI Seawolf etc CAN be picked up by other AI units.

The sub om my pics "is" a user sub.

mike_espo · 09-03-05, 12:57 PM

I don't know Fish....

I never had a AI P-3 or any aircraft or helo detect my sail. I tried every playable sub there is...all the same: The aircraft ignores me unless, and only unless, I use radar....I can fire a SAM, use ESM, or snorkel, radio, and no detection...clear day. Aircraft at 300ft within a mile......

:hmm:

I get around this by programming all aircraft and helos within my scenarios do detect the boat at a set depth..with the awesome mission editior, I can give a set time frame before the aircraft attacks:

My usual settings are detect between 17m and 14m with the Kilo and give them like 2 minutes before they attack: This prohibits me from snorkeling with an aircraft about.....much more realistic...but again, I should not have to do this....

09-02-05, 09:49 AM	#66
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Good information. It's good to know that it isn't a bug with the actual game engine, but rather something that SCS put in for gameplay reasons. I'm pretty sure that's it, because the sensors can detect those objects, meaning that the AI could be made to fire on those detections, it's just that the game is hardcoded not to give a detection for AI platforms. That's my guess anyway. SCS made some "interesting" gameplay calls with DW, so maybe they put that there so that players could fight ASW aircraft from submarines, the same reason they put in the SAM launcher in the first place, but they figured that in MP, air players wouldn't appreciate that. My point is that before we get all mad at the game and start using words like "bug", "cheat", etc. it's good to have an understanding of what's entailed in producing the behavior. Maybe I'm just sensitive to negative emoticons. __________________ LW

09-02-05, 07:30 PM	#70
Pigfish Engineer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 207 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hello. In my experience be it an Akula, Kilo, LA or Seawolf I am completly invisable to AI aircraft with only my sail showing and all mast up. Sometimes for fun I will set up a shooting gallery where they just fly above me until I take them out. Turn on your radar however-your toast. __________________

09-02-05, 08:46 PM	#73
Pigfish Engineer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 207 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Im thinking its only a user sub, in use, that is invisable. An AI Seawolf etc CAN be picked up by other AI units. __________________

09-02-05, 01:36 AM	#61
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Yet another .. doesn't russian active sonars seem to you next to useless ? They dont have time averaging so contact si always sunk in the noise. There is also one old problem with all active sonars - you always hear returning ping even if the return is so weak it won't display. And you alwas hear it at full volume (you can't hear dim return). By the sound you can have rough range for the target, even if the target is at max active sonar range. You can count targets very far away (well, this can go wrong with bottom bounce). And I always get frustrated when you ping, I hear the return, but I don't see the dot on screen (very common especially with russian subs).

09-02-05, 09:41 AM	#65
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Yes Amizaur, I got the exact same result: Although I can't get online...... I switched to the P-3 and had a foxtrot snorkeling.....did detect him with radar. However,AI is blind.....both visual and radar

09-02-05, 03:04 PM	#68
Amizaur Sonar Guy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poland Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	But we don't know how the Akula was detected - by radar, visually or maybe ESM or IR :-).

09-03-05, 12:57 PM	#75
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	I don't know Fish.... I never had a AI P-3 or any aircraft or helo detect my sail. I tried every playable sub there is...all the same: The aircraft ignores me unless, and only unless, I use radar....I can fire a SAM, use ESM, or snorkel, radio, and no detection...clear day. Aircraft at 300ft within a mile...... :hmm: I get around this by programming all aircraft and helos within my scenarios do detect the boat at a set depth..with the awesome mission editior, I can give a set time frame before the aircraft attacks: My usual settings are detect between 17m and 14m with the Kilo and give them like 2 minutes before they attack: This prohibits me from snorkeling with an aircraft about.....much more realistic...but again, I should not have to do this....