The WIA numbers that the military tries to hide

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

I also do not agree on statements like 'you were never in the military, you cannot judge how it is' and that stuff. Sure you do not get the whole picture...but btw...do you really get it when you were there...have you really seen all?

You can disagree all you want. Yet your own argument proves the point - you DON'T get the whole picture. What is more, you have only an outside view of what the impact on a person is. You don't have the personal experience.

Its like if you know a person who goes through a contentious divorce and you never have. Sure you can sympathize, but you have no personal experience. Then later you go through one - and have a totally different understanding of the situation.

Divorce is not the best example - the closest I could estimate it to be would be the loss of a child. Thankfully I have not gone through THAT - yet like the memories of combat - its just something that never, ever leaves you. You can have a few moments where your mind focuses and can think it knows what PTSD is like. But in 5 minutes - that thought is gone, you move on to the next thought - your not haunted by the sounds of gunfire, the cries of your comrades, or the slick stickyness of the blood that comes from your best friend who breathes his last in your arms. Even after you "win" an engagement, your struggling to save the lives of those who are hurt, recover those who are lost, and asking yourself what you did wrong to see so many of your friends hurt or killed, all while trying to sort out the whole mess.

Its not just the losses and combat that stays with you. The trips to the homes of families - seeing a mother, a wife or a child break down all over again. They knew their husband or father or son was gone - but you owed it to them to come and tell them how much he cared, how much he loved them, how he died fighting for them. Yes - how he didn't suffer - whether true or not. You have to give him that through his family - even though often times you wonder if you could have done "more" to save him.

Stand in front of a father who looks at you with a tears in his eyes as he asks you "Why did my son die?" - and you struggle to answer because your really wondering if its not your fault that he did. Its called Survivor's guilt. You look into the faces of people who loved those soldiers. It was your job to lead them - and somehow - things didn't go like expected - and their dead. Your responsibility. Their deaths are on your head.

Those memories never leave you. Those ghosts are by your side every minute of the day, every day of the year. They whisper in your dreams, you never escape them.

No Hawk, you nor anyone else who has never seen combat cannot have a hope of truly understanding PTSD - in all its many forms. You can sympathize, you can offer support - but if you ever feel you "understand" it - your simply deluding yourself.

[Sailor Steve]

Considering that the thread is about military dishonesty, not the experience itself, I'm not sure what the above post has to do with anything. Should a therapist who hasn't "been there and done that" be disqualified from trying to help PTSD victims? In my opinion your comments are a little on the dismissive side.

Oh, while we're on the subject, where and when was your service?

Originally Posted by Hawk66

I do not always agree with Skybird but on this topic he's definitely right. I think military organizations need more transparency in general and one way to do this is to have independent reviewers. In the end this would be beneficial for all...for the military and for society.

I completely agree with this. In this case honesty really is the best policy.

I also do not agree on statements like 'you were never in the military, you cannot judge how it is' and that stuff. Sure you do not get the whole picture...but btw...do you really get it when you were there...have you really seen all?

As do I. I've been there and done that, and no, I don't claim to know anything except my experience and those of others I've known.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

No Hawk, you nor anyone else who has never seen combat cannot have a hope of truly understanding PTSD - in all its many forms. You can sympathize, you can offer support - but if you ever feel you "understand" it - your simply deluding yourself.

I think there is a misunderstanding. I do not think that I've fully or even half-fully understand PTSD; neither the theory, nor what it means practically for a men's life.

My point is that such discussions should not only occur within the military/government but in the whole society. But one prerequisite is that the military/government makes it more transparent...so that the society as a whole cannot simply duck away from the problem so easily...

Society and politics cannot change combat. But they are responsible for deciding when you go to combat and it can provide the proper means (eg. provide budget, public support etc.) to reduce the 'side effects' of combat afterwards...in the very beginning and not when they are forced to do so by media or any other triggers.

Especially in Germany the government has tried to sell for a long time the Afghanistan engagement to the people as a 'nation building engagement' and the Bundeswehr would be just be over there to protect the nation builder or to build itself new schools, hospitals and by the way train the army of Afghanistan.

Finally after the last secretary of defense has stopped this nonsense procedure of lying and told the people 'the truth' of the scope of this engagement, you have seen more and more reports in all medias about PTSD.
This is at least my strong impression and I am asking myself if not more soldiers could be helped in a better way when the public awareness had been there from the beginning...

[CaptainHaplo]

Hawk,

Maybe I did misunderstand your post. If so, I apologize. I have worked with support groups for PTSD sufferers and I took your meaning as "anyone can understand it".

I 150% agree that the military and government need to be more forthcoming and honest.