"Islam is like a drug"

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Enforce our secular societies and rule of law without hesitation and abandon multiculturalism as an ideology, demanding full integration to our core values.

Present our objections and criticism openly and with vigor to muslim communities and nations about any possible issues.

Demand muslim nations that support and endorce terrorism to cease or be open to retaliatory measures ranging from economic to military actions, saudi arabia should be on top of that list.

We can start discussing about the exact policies when we get past the debate should something even change in our outlook.

Have fun starting World War III.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Have fun starting World War III.

We are perfectly in our rights to do this, if that leads to WW3 then it clearly is something we just have to fight then.

If someone perceives use of only diplomacy and dialog as a sign of weakness, then it just wont work, any escalation of a conflict is then of their own doing.

[Platapus]

That is one STEEP street.

I wonder where that is?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Biggles

The point of this thread is....?

Skybird does not like "them Mooslims". Because you know how they all are.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Platapus

That is one STEEP street.

I wonder where that is?

I think that it might be San Fransisco.

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

We are perfectly in our rights to do this, if that leads to WW3 then it clearly is something we just have to fight then.

Who gave you those rights? Just curious.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Who gave you those rights? Just curious.

Twisting a little are we?
Well who gave you the right to ruin our civilisation and future just to feel warm and fluffy from inside and because you dont think anything is worth fighting for?

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Twisting a little are we?
Well who gave you the right to ruin our civilisation and future just to feel warm and fluffy from inside and because you dont think anything is worth fighting for?

I uh........



WHAT!?!??!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

I don't recall the part where he launched military campaigns on non-Muslims precisely because they were not Muslims.

The Timeline
630 Two years before Muhammad's death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting 'agreements' from northern tribes. They could enjoy the 'privilege' of living under Islamic 'protection' (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).
This tax sets the stage for Muhammad's and the later Caliphs' policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.
632—634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.
633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al—Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616—17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today's Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034—35).
634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al—Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: 'The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.' To this Khalid retorts: 'How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many' (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: '[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists' (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem's; the second mine).
634—644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al—Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.
635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus
636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.
637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)
638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.
638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.
639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.
643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.
644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.
656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son—in—law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet's daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.
656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad's wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman's assassination. Ali's partisans win.
657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali
661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali's supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.
661—680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus
673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire
680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad's grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.
691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad's death.
705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.
710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.
711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor
732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance
749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids
756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids
762 Foundation of Baghdad
785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova
789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.
800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia
807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem
809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy
813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country
831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy
850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer
855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)
837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France
869—883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq
909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia
928—969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)
937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places
937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked
960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam
966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem
969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo
c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East
973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids
1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed
1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)
1012 Beginning of al—Hakim's oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians
1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses
1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus
1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed
1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.
1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate
1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection
1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia
1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine
1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)
1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia
1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana
1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies
1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca
1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands
1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970
1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

[/quote]
from: http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/...ic_crusad.html

I also want to remind you that Muhammad in the last decade of his life has orderd and led roughly 70 predatory raids and wars and punishing expeditions against other tribes that had not already converted to Muhammad's ideology and claim for power, or who threatened or were in danger to become apostates again, refusing to pay the protection money and to follow Muhammad. Muhammad's late life also already saw direct clashes with troops of the Bycantine empire - and it was not the Bycantines invading the Arabab peninsula, but Muhammed's "movement" reaching out at all directions.

Edit:
I realise that this just has been mentioned again in the Timeline above, first date mentioned: 630.

[Skybird]

http://grendelreport.posterous.com/m...mes-are-increa

(...)Since 2001, hate crimes against Muslims have decreased significantly, according to FBI statistics. After 2002, hate crimes against Muslims have not risen above 13 percent of all anti-religious crimes, and the most recent data from 2008 calculates them at 7.8 percent.

Despite this evidence to the contrary, each year has brought claims by prominent Muslim leaders that anti-Islamic hate crimes are actually growing – with the allegations usually coming right after a terrorist attack or at a time when Muslim leaders are lobbying on political issues.
(...)
The statistics reflect a disconnect between the assertions of increased Islamic hate crimes and reality. Nine years after the Sept. 11 attacks, activists and the media are using allegations of anti-Muslim prejudice to distract from problematic community issues like Islamic terrorism.

On the other hand:


Monthly Jihad Report

August, 2010

Jihad Attacks: 196

Countries: 23

Religions: 5

Dead Bodies: 811

Critically Injured: 1602


Number of deadly Islamic terror attacks since 9/11 2001: 16067

[Gerald]

Could not they be here a bit longer lines,

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Skybird;1497321[U

630[/U] Two years before Muhammad's death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting 'agreements' from northern tribes. They could enjoy the 'privilege' of living under Islamic 'protection' (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).
This tax sets the stage for Muhammad's and the later Caliphs' policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

So I was correct... Muhammad never launched any military campaigns on non-Muslims precisely because they were not Muslims. The brief affair known as the Tabuk "Crusades" amounted to the Byzantines and Arabic peoples threatening one another with imposed warning acts hinting to possible future hostilities- such fighting never materializing under Muhammad, of course. Yuhanna Ru’ba, governor of Aylah, called upon Muhammad at Tabuk, and he made a treaty of peace with the proclaimed prophet, paying the Jizyah tributary funds for the commotion caused. So did the people of Jarba and Adhruh, and they were all granted peace under Muhammad as well as guaranteed safety of their territory and their ships and caravans by land and sea transversing the Arabic peninsula which Muhammad had since taken from the hostile confederate tribes. The treaties were written by Muhammad and Yuhanna, and they were delivered to the respective parties. Yuhanna was received by Muhammad for his contributions cordially and was given due respect.

The armies never met and fought each other.

There was no major talk of these events between the Byzantines. Muhammad saw that there was no movement of troops by the enemy who seemed to have abandoned the border towns, and so he gave orders for his army of 40,000 men (30,000 infantry supported with 10,000 cavalry) to march home. Only a Christian tribal chief, Ukaydir Abdul Malik, who was the ruler of Dumatul Jandal and enjoyed the patronage of the Byzantines, was reported to be harboring hostile designs against Muhammad due to anti-Meccan sentiments. Muhammad sent a confidant, Khalid, with 500 troops to captured Ukaydir so that he might be brought to Muhammad to explain his actions. Muhammad spared Ukaydir's life on the condition that he surrender unconditionally and would pay the Jizyah for his hostility.

In consequence of all these events, many tribes of the region agreed openly to join Muhammad- abandoning the Byzantines and consequently enlarging the existing Islamic state. The rest of what you have posted there has no relevance whatsoever to Muhammad's life, nor the supposed militaristic action you imply he carried out on the "nonbelievers".

Originally Posted by Skybird

I also want to remind you that Muhammad in the last decade of his life has orderd and led roughly 70 predatory raids and wars and punishing expeditions against other tribes that had not already converted to Muhammad's ideology and claim for power, or who threatened or were in danger to become apostates again, refusing to pay the protection money and to follow Muhammad.

The raids you speak of were over trade goods and resources. This is nothing new or uncommon to the old nomadic Arab tribes of the region- simply because so many vital assets like food and water are scarce there and always have been. Actually, it's because of these raids over these resources that Muhammad came to own Medina (and later Mecca), for at Badr, almost all the Quraysh leaders had been killed or had disappeared into the desert and were never seen again (this same clan owned Mecca). Similarly, this was done with at Banu Qaynuqa, which was one of the most powerful strongholds for goods in the region, Thi Amr, Bahran, Uhud, al-Asad, Banu Nadir, and Nakhla. The Battle of the Trench was a siege the aforementioned confederate tribes launched at Medina- which ended in a great victory for the Muslims there. The few other battles Muhammad fought in or presided over were between the remnants of the Quraysh, Bedouins, Jewish nomadic tribes (Khaybar), and remaining Arabic confederate tribes (as was the case with Ta'if and Autas) in the region who were never friendly towards the Meccans- let alone Muhammad who owned the city.

The claim that there were a total of 70 raids and wars he led is a remarkably unfounded one- let alone that he led them solely based upon the issue of religion.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Muhammad's late life also already saw direct clashes with troops of the Bycantine empire -

There were no "direct clashes" as you put it between Muhammad's forces and the Byzantine Empire in his lifetime. The closest the two sides ever came to fighting was at Tabuk. It's called a crusade, yet it involved forces that were hardly suited for the times for a single battle and nobody died in it. The first time Arabs and Byzantines fought one another was in 674 AD, not over religion- but over weapons and food trade routes. The families in the region rejected the notion that Byzantine caravans should be allowed to pass through without having to pay taxes. The first actual war between Muslims and the Byzantines came in 820 following Michael II's rejection of the Abbasid Caliphate's border settlement plans over the Anatolian Peninsula.

Originally Posted by Skybird

and it was not the Bycantines invading the Arabab peninsula, but Muhammed's "movement" reaching out at all directions.

It's kind of hard for a 188-year-old corpse to launch... well, anything, really, let alone a war. You've evidently forgotten, too, that the Byzantines did not become such a well-known empire in history because of their usage of peaceful methods. They conquered and killed for land like everybody else did.



They were pushing into the Arabian peninsula and had been doing so since Justinian's time, indeed continuing throughout the remainder of the 6th century. Not only had they done it to the Arabs, but they were also doing it in Africa and Europe.

[Skybird]

When you accept to simply ignore the fact that Muhammad intimidated or pushed by force his rulership over Arab tribessince he fled from Mekka and arrived in Medina, and when you ignore that he repeatedly attacked Jewish tribes and tried to kill them, and when you ignore that in the past years of his life he sent his troops - and mostly commanded himself - on around 70 occasions against Arabb and toher triobes that fell off his cult and claim for power, or threatened to do so, when you simply ignore all this and say it is not true, then communciations become smeaningless. It is true - there is not a single book on Islam I ever read where it is not told like this. You can be picky and say that soemtimes his approaching war band already was enough a threat to bring the rebllious tribe back into line, okay - but to me the thread of force and the actual using of force in this context makes not much a difference.

Islam has conquered by force territories that were not it'S own, and where it was not present orignally. Bycantine empire at that time was engaged in a long series of wars that came in the wake of the splitting of Rome, especially with the Sassanides from Persia, and at the time of Muhammad, Konstantinopel already was deadlocked and paralysed with an inefficient bureaucratic administration, and resulting inner tensions and powerstruggles that seriously hampered it'S ability to project military influence over all of the former Roman empire'S territory in the East - that is the reason why the not much loved rule of the Bycantinians in North africa was relatively easy to be broken up by Islam in a series of combinations of conquests and intimidations and briberies. Before, the Rabas had traded with both the Sassanides and the Bycantinians, and much of the wealth of the Quraysh that let them come to great influence and power and destabilised the social system of the tribal societies of the Arabs, was due to their profiteering from trading the Persians against the Eastromans.

Islam already moved aggressively against others to subjugate them when Muhammad still was alive - and that subjugation was because the others were not submitting to Islam/Muhammad. And that qulifies very well as aggression because of "the other not being Muslim". Who do you want to kidd here when saying Muhammad never attacked others for not being Muslim? Islam is designed on the basis of aggressive missionising, from beginning on. Muhammad, using "religion" as a tool to justify his claims for power and to make himself unavailable for any criticism without the critic risking assassination over claimed "heresy" and "offence" (it still runs like this today), missionised and subjigated by threteaning violence or using violence all the time, and for the rest of his life after he arrived in Medina.

So do not tell me he did not do like this. He did. And still today, Islam does like this, basing on the explanation that there are two houses, one of war and pone of peace, and there cannot be peace as long as there is the house of war, and thus the house of war must be overthrown.

You are denying one of the essential very basics, Stealth Hunter. I also want to remind you of Muhammad'S explicit attacks against the three Jewish tribes at Medina, and the effective genocides against one of them. For the standards of that time, wiping out all males of that tribe, estimations range between 700 and 900, and leading all girls and women into sexual slavery, by both deeds effectively ending the cultural tradition of that tribe, qualifies for what in the present we understand as "genoicde" according to the UN anti genocide convention.

On the individual level, Muhammad repeatedly ordered the assassination of critics, as well as unwanted characters that learned too much about his "spiritual link" towards Allah and that it was not any spiritual or holy or divine at all, but fiction.

Finally, Islam is deeply anti-semitic and hateful towards Jews, from beginning on.

Muhammad not acting against and attacking others for not being on his side, or not being Muhammeddan (=Muhammad'S loyal followers)...? Don't fool yourself.

BTW, you mentioned the jizyah in a context that gave me the impression you wanted to say that it was just a standard deal according to the diplomatic rules of that time, common habit so to speak. But the jizyah is to be payed by everybody not submitting to Islam, it is not just a singular action like in the case you described it. It is meant to be so humiliating and hurting that the other finally agrees to convert in order to escape it. It serves the same purpose as the mandatory discrimination of so-called dhimmis. - If the other converts, he has still to pay, the zakat, which is a moral-religious obligation that all Muslims have to serve as long as their wealth is in excess of the nisab, a financial threshold meaning that if you have less than the nisab, you are freed from the duty for zakat. But different to the jizyah, which is nothing else but protection money, the zakat indeed is an internal regular payment of Muslims to their communities, it could be seen as a social wellfare tax, but it could also support jihad, since a separation of political and religious orientation in Islam does not exist. - Muhammad accepted moving Beduins which were hard to control, to not submit formally to Islam and his claim for power, as long as they payed the jizyah. So when he demanded the Bycantine representative to pay jizyah, he demanded nothing less than acceptance of a state of inferiority and submission, kind of, to Muhammad's claims. Today, time and again clerics and sometimes even politicians in Muslim countries demand that Western nations should pay jizyah to them. Many things given to them and done for them are taken for granted and as if they are natural, because the sdame attitude of mind tells them that it is their right to demand the West always giving to them anyway. In Germany, even the Greens seem to raise demands now that German citizens shall pay an additional "solidarity money" (the second of this type, the first was meant for fiannciang the revuilkding of the East after reujnification), as it is called here, which should be used on boosting Islam in Germany and raise more Islamic institutions like mosques and culture centres that are hoped "to help integration".

A lack of such imjstitutions is hardly the problem with integrating Muslims. That there already are so very many such institutions and according communities, is likely the reason why integration failed.

Oh you mean the Lockheed stimulus package?

So Skybird got caught making stuff up again on his favourite subject where he is the "expert".