installed or uninstalled? actively playing? plans?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by AkbarGulag

If you think the support/release of this game is bad, why would you go back to MTW2

That game was in worse condition than this one and has spook patch releases and everything! SEGA is not made of win. Not to mention the forums are full of whiners and grumpy moderators.

Landlubbers !!

Maybe he loves Total War series so much that the bugs dont matter? That's the case with me, I love the TW series no matter the bugs. But as for SHIV, I've never really liked other sub action that the Uboats, so they can patch it up to 10000.02 and I still wouldnt think of it as a great game.

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by John Channing

Given your third statement, your first two are not all surprising.

And this is hardly a scientific, or ever reliable, indicator of anything.

JCC

Here are my first 2 comments:

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

This poll is something of an eye-opener. Were I to have received this sort of customer feedback in some of my previous jobs I'd probably have been sacked, or at least read the riot act.

Given that more people will have the same feelings but not tell you about it, these numbers are an indictment IMO.

Here are the numbers to which I refer:

* 190 people have voted indicating they have purchased the game (the 13 responses in the last 3 categories can be discarded re direct experience as they have not purchased the game).
* 127 of those (or 66.8%) play rarely or not at all.
* 67 of them (or 35.3%) don't play at all.
* 35 of them (or 18.4%) have uninstalled it.

It happens to be true that I have worked in a capacity of analysing direct customer survey results and devising strategies to improve those results for a number of major corporations. My opinion of these results is in no way affected by my opinion of the game, so, with all due respect JCC, I would suggest you're the one choosing to interpret my comments based on your own prejudices (for example "anyone who has a bad opinion of the game will always be biased in their feedback").

Of course I am only too happy to be shown an argument that supports the premise that 33.2% of customers happily playing a game are NOT figures that should be regarded as an indictment. My experience is that anything scoring 35.3% 'bottom two boxes' customer scores would be producing alarm bells, but that's simply my experience (not opinion).

As to the reliability or significance of these numbers, the only thing I conclude is they are a reliable indicator of the experiences of the 203 people who have voted so far. As to how far one might choose to extrapolate these figures into a wider meaning, that's a whole different discussion. It IS true, generally, that there will be more people with negative feelings than those who have actually INDICATED those feelings.....generally it's a case of people don't like to report that they feel they made an unwise choice/decision.....again, that's generally accepted wisdom in Customer Satisfaction Survey methodology, not my specific opinion. There are, of course, variations based on the survey questions and nature of the survey topic, but it's a generally applicable rule.

Incidentally, I have in fact posted comments on what I think was done well....trouble is I think they are incidental when compared with the problems.

Cheers

[AkbarGulag]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Maybe he loves Total War series so much that the bugs dont matter? That's the case with me, I love the TW series no matter the bugs. But as for SHIV, I've never really liked other sub action that the Uboats, so they can patch it up to 10000.02 and I still wouldnt think of it as a great game.

Im glad you understand my point then Dowly. Saying "this game has bugs and clearly other people think so, im off to play another buggy game" detracts from the whole point of this poll IMO.

Folllowing your logic of "People will play what they love" then another way to interpret this poll is....

10 people hate it, they won't be back.

155 people are playing always/sometimes/rarely with all these changing to always once patch 1.3 is released.

38 have it and dont play it but will re-install it at patch 1.3 or will purchase at 1.3

Thats 193 people Happy at patch 1.3, with only 10 people staying away.

Clearly %95 of the people polled love this sim and don't care about some other buggy game the last %5 are off to play.

Theres one other thing this place has going for it, a group of dedicated modders who perform highly compared to other games (including the TW series) due to the fact that its coded in a manner that allows everyone to MOD to their hearts content (unlike the rollbacks made in the TW series for example).

I'm in no way trying to degrade Steeltraps statement (hello btw mate), just trying to keep it in perspective. Sure, at first glance it does seem concerning the way the poll stacks up, but as they say, theres lies, bloody lies and statistics.

[Iron Budokan]

Wow! When you add it up 59% are currently at never play, rarely play, or waiting for 1.3. That's pretty darn telling. But I mean in a good way because that percentage is willing to give the game another shot after 1.3....

[Bort]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

* 190 people have voted indicating they have purchased the game (the 13 responses in the last 3 categories can be discarded re direct experience as they have not purchased the game).
* 127 of those (or 66.8%) play rarely or not at all.
* 67 of them (or 35.3%) don't play at all.
* 35 of them (or 18.4%) have uninstalled it.

Even though this kind of thing is apparently your job, you've messed up the statistics and lost every person who actually plays the game regularly.

Keep in mind that you say this game is unfixable with any amount of modding. What about after the patch when I would say it's safe to assume that many (if not all) of the major problems will be fixed? The modders can handle the rest of the small problems like they've already done.

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Here are my first 2 comments:

Here are the numbers to which I refer:

* 190 people have voted indicating they have purchased the game (the 13 responses in the last 3 categories can be discarded re direct experience as they have not purchased the game).
* 127 of those (or 66.8%) play rarely or not at all.
* 67 of them (or 35.3%) don't play at all.
* 35 of them (or 18.4%) have uninstalled it.

It happens to be true that I have worked in a capacity of analysing direct customer survey results and devising strategies to improve those results for a number of major corporations. My opinion of these results is in no way affected by my opinion of the game, so, with all due respect JCC, I would suggest you're the one choosing to interpret my comments based on your own prejudices (for example "anyone who has a bad opinion of the game will always be biased in their feedback").

Of course I am only too happy to be shown an argument that supports the premise that 33.2% of customers happily playing a game are NOT figures that should be regarded as an indictment. My experience is that anything scoring 35.3% 'bottom two boxes' customer scores would be producing alarm bells, but that's simply my experience (not opinion).

As to the reliability or significance of these numbers, the only thing I conclude is they are a reliable indicator of the experiences of the 203 people who have voted so far. As to how far one might choose to extrapolate these figures into a wider meaning, that's a whole different discussion. It IS true, generally, that there will be more people with negative feelings than those who have actually INDICATED those feelings.....generally it's a case of people don't like to report that they feel they made an unwise choice/decision.....again, that's generally accepted wisdom in Customer Satisfaction Survey methodology, not my specific opinion. There are, of course, variations based on the survey questions and nature of the survey topic, but it's a generally applicable rule.

Incidentally, I have in fact posted comments on what I think was done well....trouble is I think they are incidental when compared with the problems.

Cheers

When someone states that “I've always felt SH4 is a travesty”, uses loaded words like “indictment” and then leaves off the part of the description “waiting for patch 1.03 and beyond” leaving only the part about people not playing, I have to think that their biases are very much on display.

To try a different perspective.

As of 2:13 ET…

The largest single block of “voters” (31.58%) are “Installed and Happily Playing”

60.29% of respondents are currently playing the game.

90.44% of respondents are awaiting patch 1.03.

and only 3.35% are “disgusted, will never play again”

Roughly the same numbers but quite a different way of portraying them, don’t you think?

As to the lack of credibility of this poll, Sh3 sold somewhere in excess of 300,000 copies. Lets say, for argument sake that Sh4 sold half of that amount, or 150,000. This means that the 209 people who took the poll represent .0014% of the total universe. Add to that the fact that the sample was taken from a website that primarily appeals to fans of the genre (so much for a random sample) and that the questions are ambiguous at best (what does “rarely” mean) and you will see the problem I have with this type of thing.

It is a fun little diversion, but when people start to take it too seriously, or treat it like it has some validity, I get a little concerned, that’s all.

JCC

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Bort

Even though this kind of thing is apparently your job, you've messed up the statistics and lost every person who actually plays the game regularly.

I wasn't going to mention that part.

JCC

[Rockin Robbins]

I also have to think the survey raises more questions than answers. In the customer service field we have a saying that only one of ten dissatisfied people will complain, so we always assume that our real dissatisfaction level is 10 times what we measure.

Sounds good, but I don't think that assumption applies here at all. After all Subsim isn't a haven of all submarine simmers, it is the haven of the hardest to please, most persnickety in the known universe. This group not only finds every detail they don't like, but they put thousands of man-hours into modding the games to fix them!

In my opinion, conventional marketing wisdom is turned on its head in this group and where the general public (new gamers) would be happy as could be, we'll be grousing about this or that nagging detail and will tend to talk about it and respond heavily to a survey like this. This is because we love simulations and want them to be the best possible. We appreciate what we have and dream about what will be possible tomorrow. My feeling is that this group itself is biased by its high standards and experience, coupled with its previous exposure to Silent Hunter III, a better simulation! We always assume that each successive simulation by the same authors will be built to higher standards. I don't think that happened here.

So I'm going to say the level of negatives in this survey are much higher than they are likely to be in the class of all buyers of Wolves of the Pacific. And I know that their reasons for dissatisfaction would be very different than ours: mostly too much complexity for kids used to playing Ratchet and Clank. (disclaimer: I know about Ratchet and Clank only from my son's Playstation 2). Someone could easily argue that the complete class of buyers would have even more complaints then! That's my story and I'm sticking to it, whatever it is.

[_alphaBeta_]

Installed, never play, waiting for 1.3 & beyond

Certainly looks impressive and runs nicely on my rig. I haven't played it much after I got it and found all the problems. I'm not specifically avoiding it, but I guess I'd rather spend what little gaming time I have on games that aren't so buggy.

I have high hopes for 1.3 and the modding community.

[Major Johnson]

Well I had to do a what if vote. I would be playing happily if my power supply was up to snuff! Installed the game a few days after it came out, patched it to 1.1 and went through the sub school. I love the graphis, especially the way water is renedered. The best I've ever seen! 1.2 came out so I applied that and started a career. Had a few CTDs and decided to reinstall and patch to 1.2 before starting the game. I was able to start another career and played most of the first patrol before the CTDs started in again. Soon after my pc just started shutting off when playing. I reasoned it out to be my power supply which was probably defective when I bought it, but just never had an application that was so demanding on a video card. So I ordered a new one, which came DOA, sent it back and I'm waiting for the replacement, which should be here Thursday, just in time for my birthday on Friday! I admit, I'm in the tank for SH4. Was a big fan of SH1, and waited 10 long years for the series to finally get back to the Pacific! So I'm confident that 1.3 will fix most the things that need fixin, and I wouldn't be surprised if they throw us a bone to boot!

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by John Channing

I wasn't going to mention that part.

JCC

Probably just as well not to, John, as you'd be making the same error as Bort:

Total who responded and have actually purchased and played the game: 190
Those who are happily playing: 63 (33.2%)
Those who are something OTHER than happily playing: 127 (66.8%)
Given my interest was in those OTHER than happily playing, that's what I quoted. I even took the time to exclude those yet to purchase the game...something nobody else has done. If I've made a mistake then I'd be happy to have it explained to me....

Originally Posted by John Channing

The largest single block of “voters” (31.58%) are “Installed and Happily Playing”

60.29% of respondents are currently playing the game.

Originally Posted by John Channing

90.44% of respondents are awaiting patch 1.03.

and only 3.35% are “disgusted, will never play again”

Roughly the same numbers but quite a different way of portraying them, don’t you think?

Well, certainly a 'creative' one.....

60.29% are currently playing? Well, roughly HALF of those are playing 'rarely' and waiting on 1.03. Depends on your definition of 'currently'. If you think 'rarely' = 'currently', then it's fine. 'Rarely' to me means their default is NOT to play.

90.44% are waiting on 1.03? Don't know where you get that, given that the first response makes no mention of patch 1.03 at all, simply that they are happily playing. While it's a fair bet they would like 1.03, they are the only group NOT waiting specifically for it.

My point in all of this was that approximately 2 out of 3 people who have the game either play it rarerly or not at all. Nothing in the figures has changed that. If people think that's a good enough response, good for them. It in no way invalidates my observation that many companies would be aghast at such numbers, and certainly my own direct experience is I'd be in deep doo-doo were I responsible for such customer feedback. Nothing more, nothing less. To put it another way:

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Of course I am only too happy to be shown an argument that supports the premise that 33.2% of customers happily playing a game are NOT figures that should be regarded as an indictment. My experience is that anything scoring 35.3% 'bottom two boxes' customer scores would be producing alarm bells, but that's simply my experience (not opinion).

One thing I am not trying to do is say people are wrong for liking the game!! I am happy for them, and I do not intend any sarcasm in saying that. I wish I could be as happy, or that Ubi/Developers had not sent what, on the basis of these results, the majority of those who have responded feel is an unsatisfactory product to market.

Cheers all.....no rancour on my part!

p.s. Hi to you too, Akbar!
pp.s. Re MTW2, the difference for me is what I expect from it. I don't view it as a 'sim' in the way I do SH. You could liken the AI that has convoys stopping conveniently when you torp a single ship in the same way that people in MTW2 forum regarded the AI having troop formations sitting in the middle of a field being hit by missile fire and doing nothing. The folks in MTW2 certainly had plenty to say about it, yet there's barely a whisper here. Meanwhile I am asked why I'd play a game like MTW2 that is 'more flawed' than SH4. Strange......

[TDK1044]

The most amusing part of all this to me is that 36 people claim that they have purchased and installed the game, but that they are waiting for patch 1.3 and beyond before actually playing the game? That sums up the validity of this poll.

Most people in the community, if they're being honest, are playing a patched and modded version of the game. Those, like me, who play at less than 100 percent Realism, are enjoying the current version of the game and are waiting to see what patch 1.3 will bring.

[mookiemookie]

I voted "Installed and rarely play" as I would play more, but the whole "being engaged" thing kind of precludes me from doing so.

Be careful what kind of inferences you make. Maybe I misunderstood the question, but if I did, then many other people could have.

[John Channing]

Again this is, at best, an interesting diversion, nothing more. People who take this stuff too seriously need to remember that.

JCC

[TDK1044]

Precisely, John.