Large Tankers carrying CORK?! 10 torps and no sinking

[nattydread]

Originally Posted by Galanti

As someone (Beery or Ducimus?) pointed out elsewhere, duds are modelled somewhat squirrelly in this game. I've noticed myself I only get the 'torpedo was a dud message' when I'm below periscope depth and my hydrophones are working. Also, graphically, duds often use the same sound and graphics as real hits.

Data in the torpedoes_sim file seems to suggest that some particular types of duds are triggered 1.5m from the target, which would logically look to the skipper as a solid hit. It's possible that this is leading many people to believe that many marus are soaking up far more hits than is possible.

I'm not saying the damage model is perfect by any means. I hear players boasting of sinking Yamato with 4 torps, or CAs and CVs with single hits, which would really stick in my craw in career mode.

Edit: I found Beery's post. it's a ways down, so here's his observation:


One thing to be aware of is that the game models some duds in a rather weird way: some torpedoes will impact a ship and they'll appear to explode, but they have no effect on the enemy ship at all. You can only see the non-effect of these torpedoes if you have the full 3D damage graphics checked in the graphics options - they leave no hole in the ship's hull.

Because of the above many players are complaining of torpedoes that explode but do no damage. I think these were intended to be 'contact duds' but the devs forgot to remove the explosion graphics and the sound.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=113031&page=4

You know that coul dbe whats happening, not to mention I dont always get a chance to see the impacts, I go off what my sonar guys tells me...hanging around for the fireworks can get you killed.

Ive notice the sonar guys doesnt say torpedo impact unless it actually hits, pre-detonations do not deliver a response. So I know for sure I had 5 hits, maybe 6...but its possible several of them where those mis-leading dud/low yield explosions. Man I hope somebody fixes that...Im beginnig to become more and more disenchanted by so many of the missing details. I was really hoping teh Devs would nail this release. It sucks to know your doing it right, but not having the tools available or the proper detail available to get results.

[Redwine]

If you use Dud unchecked, the remaining posibility is a fail of contact by bad angle, or range.

The torps do not explodes, and fall to the bottom of the sea, where they explode, you can hear the explosion noise.

Happen to me many times. :hmm:

[Bilge_Rat]

just a thought, but could the reason why some hits result in visible damage and some do not, be due to the fact that in some cases the damage graphic exists and in some cases it does'nt? It might be worth checking out.

I have noticed other areas were animations are missing, for example, when you look at your sonarman calling out bearings, certain figures will look at you and say the bearing, others will remain hunched over their instruments and you just hear the voice.

[Bando]

I had this happen to me. Was slamming my last three torps into a tanker, she listed and stopped, half her decks awash, but no sinker. I saved the game for a drastic measure, i rammed the ****head. Well..... it's no hard guess, I went down permanently, tanker still afloat. So i reload from where i saved, guess what, she sank right in front of my eyes. Go figure

[Egan]

Lol, Us Hardkor Realizm Nazis should have pointed out by now that Clay Blair does actually discuss this exact issue (the tanker thing,) in 'Silent Victory':

"This presented Christie with a problem. As Dan Dapsit and Dave Whelchel (among others) had found, tankers (like armoured plated battle ships and carriers) were difficult to sink. They were well compartmented, able to close of areas hit by torpedoes and (if empty) flood compensating compartments to keep from capsizing. Some well built tankers could absorb 5, 6, 7 or even 10 direct torpedo hits without sinking."

He then goes on to talk about the small size of the warheads being a contributing factor also which I think is a good point. I think even in the game your chances of sinking any ship with a single torpedo is pretty slim unless you snapped it under the keel with a magnetic warhead.

I think the tankers could probably do with being tweaked a little bit but not by much. Personally I think the most it has taken me to sink a tanker is 4 or so.

I also wonder if people are looking at visual damage and thinking it to be a reliable indicator. I've always suspected it is nothing more than eye candy myself. If the holes on the outside of my Gato are anything to go by I should have been destroyed pretty much outright. In real life subs that got damage like that didn't tend to make it out

[Calbeck]

"This tanker can't sink!"

"She is made of iron, sir. I assure you she can."

I don't care what she's carrying or how she's designed. The "unsinkable" Titanic went down because of a relatively tiny scratch that just happened to cross through five compartments. Ships don't float because they're full of air; they float because they displace water. That's why they refer to ship tonnage as "displacement".

Now, a tanker might have a lot of displacement going for it, and require a lot of holes blown in it, but remember the original post: that sucker was UNDERWATER. It's not "displacing" anything at that point; it's a submarine with a smokestack for a snorkel.

[UnSalted]

I posted earlier on this thread and danged if I didn't run into a weird chain of events for illustrating the puzzlement.

I was heading to a new patrol area when I checked out a small convoy blip. Looked it over and there was a mouthwatering sight...two Large Modern Tankers in line with a medium freighter tagging along. Worked it out for a nice ~90 degree shot from 700 yards and started firing, the first 4 torps all set at 15 depth, influence exploders, high speed with a lead of 5 for the 7 knots they were making.

The first two go straight into the middle of the lead tanker and the second one keeps right on straight ahead....first time I've seen one fail to make a turn. Anyway I wait and hit the second tanker with identical shots and it blew up immediately. I mean the water barely finished falling whenthe Enemy Destroyed notation came up. I figured I'd chase down the freighter after I finsihed off the first tanker so I went looking and found him steaming along at 4 knots but listing like crazy.

I couldn't finish him with guns because the sea was too rough so I waited for an hour and followed hoping to save torps. Didn't happen after 2 hours so I finally put another torp into him from astern. It slowed him down to 1 knot. That was three so I figured the fire on his deck would spread and he'd go down. I kept figuring the same way after four more torps, 2 into each side from 90 degrees to his keel in his middle until he finally wen down.

Same basic hits on the same basic ships with completely different results. So after a few beers and a great deal of thought, I've decided that the programmers sell torps based on commission and HAD to make sure they kept their sales climbing.

[ccruner13]

not a tanker but still blows your mind

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by UnSalted

I posted earlier on this thread and danged if I didn't run into a weird chain of events for illustrating the puzzlement.

I was heading to a new patrol area when I checked out a small convoy blip. Looked it over and there was a mouthwatering sight...two Large Modern Tankers in line with a medium freighter tagging along. Worked it out for a nice ~90 degree shot from 700 yards and started firing, the first 4 torps all set at 15 depth, influence exploders, high speed with a lead of 5 for the 7 knots they were making.

The first two go straight into the middle of the lead tanker and the second one keeps right on straight ahead....first time I've seen one fail to make a turn. Anyway I wait and hit the second tanker with identical shots and it blew up immediately. I mean the water barely finished falling whenthe Enemy Destroyed notation came up. I figured I'd chase down the freighter after I finsihed off the first tanker so I went looking and found him steaming along at 4 knots but listing like crazy.

I couldn't finish him with guns because the sea was too rough so I waited for an hour and followed hoping to save torps. Didn't happen after 2 hours so I finally put another torp into him from astern. It slowed him down to 1 knot. That was three so I figured the fire on his deck would spread and he'd go down. I kept figuring the same way after four more torps, 2 into each side from 90 degrees to his keel in his middle until he finally wen down.

Same basic hits on the same basic ships with completely different results. So after a few beers and a great deal of thought, I've decided that the programmers sell torps based on commission and HAD to make sure they kept their sales climbing.

As i wrote above, i note the same, those ships loaded with fuel or ammo are not the problem, they can be destroyed with no problems.

The problem are another ships filled or leaded-up with i do not know what...

The remaining option is freight, but in a test mission, a big cargo or tanker as no problem to be destroyed when filled with freight.

They seems to be empty, they are not filled with ammo or fuel, i know that for the FX effects.

Plus in some missions, not often, i seen a strange behaviour, some cargo and tankers overfilled, with too much cargo, because they sails with the waterlina at the deck level.
They sails in similar condition as the screen sho above.

:hmm::hmm::hmm:

Look these screen shots.... they have no damage of any kind, it is their normal sail condition, this happened into SH III too if not remember bad.

[ccruner13]

and check out that small split out in front....its rocking back and forth like that but the seas are calm and it wasnt hit by anything. there two others doing that in the convoy too...their props were not fully in the water even they were so high out

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by ccruner13

and check out that small split out in front....its rocking back and forth like that but the seas are calm and it wasnt hit by anything. there two others doing that in the convoy too...their props were not fully in the water even they were so high out

May be empty ships ? :hmm: :hmm:

[jhelix70]

not a tanker but still blows your mind

I agree. I think in SH3, once a ships deck was "awash" the ship would go down eventually. I liked this feature because it let me know if I needed to expend another torp or not.

Ships don't float because they're full of air; they float because they displace water. That's why they refer to ship tonnage as "displacement".

Right, and the weight of the water displaced equals the weight of the ship. Of course, the air inside a ship helps, because to float the ship's total density has to be less than that of water.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

I put 6 torps in a Large modern tanker. All 6 torps were set to a depth of 15 ft (under her keel) and exploded magnetically. She was listing hard to port and her decks coverd with water...and she kept steaming. Huge hole just forward of her funnels.

So I sped ahead of the convoy and put 4 MORE in her (this time set to 10 ft so they would impact explode) about 2 hrs later from starboard side (it was a mission now to sink this tanker). Now she sat so low in the water you could BARELY see the tops of her anchors along the bow of her ship, and her deck was under 4 ft of water.....

The large tanker steamed merrily on to deliver her cargo... Bugged? anyone else have this happen with a tanker?

If you don't get a 90 degree impact the torpedo may do much less damage or none at all. Also, if you have realistic torpedos turned on some torpedos seem to impact but they're actually detonating early and they do no damage.

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by Beery

If you don't get a 90 degree impact the torpedo may do much less damage or none at all. Also, if you have realistic torpedos turned on some torpedos seem to impact but they're actually detonating early and they do no damage.

I had duds turned off. And I would say at least 5 of the 10 torps hit near a 90 deg angle. I think its just an error with the Large Modern tankers damage zone variables. There are far to many people with the same problem.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

I had duds turned off. And I would say at least 5 of the 10 torps hit near a 90 deg angle. I think its just an error with the Large Modern tankers damage zone variables. There are far to many people with the same problem.

I've seen a lot of complaints saying that 5 torpedoes to sink a large tanker is ridiculous but in reality 5 torps is what should be expected for such a large target. I can cite a couple of examples from the war where medium and large freighters got hit by 5 torpedoes and sailed on regardless. I think the problem is that many players think that a torpedo should be some kind of wonder weapon, but it's not. It's no use just hitting the target anywhere and demanding results - you have to hit the target at the right angle and in the right spot. Ten hits to the bow wouldn't even slow down most ships. Plus your magnetic torps might well have done no damage - the distance from the hull affects the effectiveness greatly. You had only five torpedoes with certain hits and you actually decreased your chances of sinking her by purposefully counterflooding her (helping her crew to do their job). If anything your four hits on the starboard side probably increased her chances of survival.

Anyway, I must say it seems a bit ironic to be complaining about the unrealism of tankers requiring ten torpedoes when you're playing the game with duds turned off. I mean do you want realism or not?

Look, if you want realism, play realistically then you can complain about features being unrealistic. But if you want it to be merely a game, play it as such and be happy that it's challenging.

As for me, I'm a realism junkie and I've seen nothing in the game that suggests that either torpedo effectiveness is too low or that ship damage models are unrealistically tough. If anything these things are some of the best modelled features in the game - if they weren't I'd be modding them right now.