5 days till the ban in wales

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by joea

What I find amusing is the whole "passive smoke is gonna kill you" thing. The Los Angeles Times did an article a few years ago that stated that the US Government funded a research project to find out the dangers of second hand smoke. The majority of the researchers claimed that second hand smoke caused little if any harm to people,while a minority claimed it was hazordous to others health. The Government went with the minority claims that second hand smoke was harmful,because that's what Congress wanted to hear.

Were that the same researchers that some years earlier claimed that cigarettes do not cause any addiction at all and that nicotine and the other poisons in it are in very severe doubt to be able to cause cancer?

A scientific study showed that in the past years cogarette companies increased the level of nicotine by around 15%, if I remember the value correctly. The sudy was able to give undoubtly evidence that comanies were lieyng when claiming that this was due to natural fluctuation of a natural product, but was being raised intentionally, artifically.

The newest reseacrh on passive smoking comes from European institutions and is less than one year old. Beyond that, simple logic dictates to reject a statement that when breathing in the stuff a smoker breathes out, this means that the toxic agents meanwhile have dissapeared into nothing. And you still breathe it in hours after the cigarette has been consumed.

for the most, smoking is learned by social examples, and before the age of 18-20. After that age, not even 20% of those who were vulnerable to it will become addicted. The industry must turn young people into addicts before they reach that age, beyond that age, 80% of the potential addicts are lost for them. That is long-known data, btw.

Hayfever for me, too, joea. Let's suffer together . Mind if I spend you a virtual Dalwhinnie, 15 years?

[joea]

Btw that quote is from TheSatyr not me....

Originally Posted by Skybird

Hayfever for me, too, joea. Let's suffer together . Mind if I spend you a virtual Dalwhinnie, 15 years?

Please enjoy! I am a fan of quality scotch which I manage to drink very rarely. Let me say I have no problem with people smoking at all, nor even smoking in a bar, I go out once or twice a week so can tolerate it. I disagree there is no effect on those around smokers, I would also point out to smokers that there are laws againt the secondary effects of alcohol, mainly in drinking and driving, and I am concerned with violence etc. fuelled by alcoholism. I just tihnk we should be concerned with smoking too.

[Skybird]

I stand corrected! Slainte!

[Penelope_Grey]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Making people to accept responsibility for their acts is very fair towards the paying community, and I consider it to be just and fine. The principle of solidarity is not there to reward the stupidity or irresponsibility of somebody. It is there to give protection in case you become a victim of circumstances or events that are beyond your control. If you live unhealthy, eat a lot of bad stuff, consume poisons, that is no accident and no mishap - it is your decision. It is only fair then if you have to pay for negative consequences deriving from your own stupid deeds.

What if you can't pay, go away and suffer? You obviously don't seem to like the point I am making. If you smoke, you are paying taxes and that counts towards the infrastructure of the country. Furthermore, its not as simple as "just stop smoking!" its a lot more complicated than that, some people do not have the will power or where with all to accomplish the task and thus have no choice but to continue to smoke. Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances on the face of the earth. Not everybody can simply just do it.

Originally Posted by Skybird

I do not accept your queer comparison to sports as long as it isn't something extremely unreasonable (like mountain climbing without security ropes, or soemthing like that). For the latter example, special insurances are already there, as a matter of fact. And a growing number of services are no longe payed for in Germany, and must be payed by the patient. the removal of tatoos, for example. Beauty surgery witout a need, when there is no medical or psycholoigical need to correct a deformation. Fillings in teeth, and teeth replacements also are things where patients need to pay more and more shares for. Which I consider to be okay, fair, and fine.

I think its a disgrace, especially as my parents and their parents have paid into the system all their lives, and are still paying and are denied healthcare. Thats like me paying into a savings account and then being denied a withdrawl.

Originally Posted by Skybird

So you smoke. Okay, your business. But if you do it in public, please have the decency to clean the place of your ash and burned cigerattes before you leave - and if one day you get sick from your smoking, pay for that yourself. Your act, your consequence - your responesbility. I do not wish to spend money on you because you have choosen to ruin your health.

Don't be so melodramatic. I know full well the consequences of my actions and I am very 100% respectful of non-smokers which you should know as I mentioned it earlier. But I absolutely refuse point blank to feel I have an obligation to pay when I am in fact already paying with taxes on tobacco products. So really you are not spending money on me, if I smoke all my life, I have paid all my life for any treatment I may need. (I wont smoke all my life, but Im just saying)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

What if you can't pay, go away and suffer? You obviously don't seem to like the point I am making. If you smoke, you are paying taxes and that counts towards the infrastructure of the country.

Quatsch. The taxes per package sold do not go into the health system, at least not in Germany, they are added to he genral national tax income which is spend to pay for all activities and services of the state - not just health care. the latter is massively financed by individual health insurances. Also, smokers do not pay more taxes in general than non-smokers. And last, in germany we have health insurances, the fees one has to pay intom them do not discriminate between smokers and non-smokers as well. What has taxes goiung into the economy, education, traffic and infrastructure to do with it?

Furthermore, its not as simple as "just stop smoking!" its a lot more complicated than that, some people do not have the will power or where with all to accomplish the task and thus have no choice but to continue to smoke.

Don't make me cry. You must not tell me about this, i have been clinical psychologist, and although it did not specialize in drug abuse treatment, I nevertheless needed to learn about it. If somebody has "no will power", sometimes it helps if he seeks professional help and makes a therapy to raise that will power. Sometimes just a kick in the a$$ also helps. Artificial coma and intense 24-36 hour decontamination of the body also can help in serious cases - the rest is behavioral changes. "I am so weak, i have no will, so I do what I want - could you pay my bill please?" is no excuse - it's an affront. If I would practice as therapist and somebody would come to me and tell me such BS, I would (metaphorically) slap his face. As meditation teacher (that I also worked as) I also kicked people out of their habit to make their self-invented weakness in will responsible for their claim that others have to share their responsebilities, do their work, pay their issues. No chance to avoid that! Get your bu-tt moving, and when I see you are serious in the effort, I will give you the assistance you need. If you don't even try and invest all what is yours before demanding others to invest into you, yo better get away and don't waste my time.

Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances on the face of the earth.

Why the hell are you consuming it then, and if you get sick from it, expect others to pay for your treatment? You play with fire, so expect to get burned. Nobody forces you start playing with fire. But when you start with it you are responsible for the consequences of it. No matter if you are low on will power or not. You - not me, not sombeody else - YOU. - On that matter, I strictly oppose tobacco adverts and selling drugs like these to juveniles below the age of 20, for this reason. the same concerning alcohol.

Not everybody can simply just do it.

That's why there is professional help available. The problem is not so much willingness, but seriously wishing to get away from a drug. that wish often does not raise before the pain has become too much. Therapists know that sometimes they must kick somebody even deeper, or wait until he has fallen deeper himself, before their possebilities of helping can become fruitful. People usually don't do what they do not wish to do, if they can avoid it. But why must others pay for that phlegmatism of theirs?

I think its a disgrace, especially as my parents and their parents have paid into the system all their lives, and are still paying and are denied healthcare.

Don't become abstract by saying "the system". We are talking about a precisely defined port of it only: health care.
I hope they receive that support they need in order to deal with health problems that they suffer from without massively being responsible for it. Things that are caused by aging, usual desease, accidents. All that is fine. But if they suffer lunge cancer and have been smoking, maybe even refuse to stop smoking and start a therpay after the surgeon took away their lunge, I do not see any reason why it is a disgrace that they are expected to pay for all that themselves. If you cause a traffic accident, your insurance will pay. but only when it is clear that you did not intentionally cause tha accident. In the example with your parents, it was them making the decision to smoke, not anybody else. And today nobody can claim anymore that he does not have intellectual understanding of smoking being hazardous to one's health.

Don't be so melodramatic. I know full well the consequences of my actions and I am very 100% respectful of non-smokers which you should know as I mentioned it earlier.

You just refuse to be held responsible for the consequences of your actions you are so very much aware of. That is absurd, you contradict yourself. Your respect for non-smokers ends where you demand them to pay for your smoking-related diseases.

But I absolutely refuse point blank to feel I have an obligation to pay when I am in fact already paying with taxes on tobacco products.

As I said, these taxes do not go into the health system, they are added to the general pot only. And although you choose to challenge your chances and raise your risks, you still do not pay "more" into the pot than those who keep their risks lower that the community have to pay for them, eventually. - If you have become older, you will find that most life insurances you want to enter first try to rate you on your age and health, and the money you have to pay varies accordingly. the higher the risk, the higher the entrance fee. When you have a car, at least in Germany you have to pay less when you already have driven twenty years or so without accident. When you had an accident, the costs for you go up. But when you smoke, it all of a sudden should be any different?

So really you are not spending money on me, if I smoke all my life, I have paid all my life for any treatment I may need. (I wont smoke all my life, but Im just saying)

You haven't payed a "bonus" for the massively increased risks you intentionally have choosen, that'S why I would demand you to pay first with the money you have yourself, and spend it on the purpose (if you have made that experience, you certainly will give it a second thought before continuing with smoking, I promise you). If your money is not sufficient, then we can talk about eventually adding some communal money to make sure that you can cover the costs for basic treatment. Which does not mean that you can demand the luxury room in hospital.

You give me very much the feeling that we talk in circles now, and so please understand that I leave it to this, I see no need to endlessly repeat myself. I have said anything on the issue I have to say. Love it or leave it. Nothing personal, nichts für ungut!

[Penelope_Grey]

Well if that is what you want Skybird... really, I should have walked out of this discussion with you the moment you told me I was going to die a slow painful death kind of unnecessary and rather morbid even if meant as a joke, but, there we are...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Well if that is what you want Skybird... really, I should have walked out of this discussion with you the moment you told me I was going to die a slow painful death kind of unnecessary and rather morbid even if meant as a joke, but, there we are...

Obviously you do not share my sense of humour. The first and third repliy I gave in that posting all were not meant so seriously. I even was surprised that you answered them in all seriousness!

So smile again.

[gnirtS]

[quote=Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Compare the numbers of people dying of smoking-related deaseases and suffering amputations, cancer-treatements and such - to the number of parachuters killed or having accident.

As well as the numbers being tiny nearly everyone involved in whats classed as a dangerous sport pays and carries insurance of some kind.
A parachute accident is unlikely to cause much in the way of long drawn out ill effects - you make a red splodge on the floor, are scraped off and generally thats the only cost to the system.

Also compare the seriousness of smoker's deseases, and the seriousness of prachaturers's suffering - which are not about lung-extractions, cancer therapies and limb amputations, but for the most deal with sprains, and occasionally broken feet or legs.

Compare that to a smoker that can need 10 - 20 or even more YEARS of treatment of one form and another to cope with the related diseases. All of this comes off the health service. Someone having a parachuting accident is highly unlikely to cause health effects on total strangers around them either.

Im involved with what some insurance companies class as a dangerous sport (scuba diving), i pay a large amount per year in insurance for myself and 3rd party. If things go wrong, i can only blame myself and im not affecting the health of other people sat around me minding their own business.

Sports and smoking health issues just aren't comparable.

[gnirtS]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

I think its a disgrace, especially as my parents and their parents have paid into the system all their lives, and are still paying and are denied healthcare. Thats like me paying into a savings account and then being denied a withdrawl.

More like paying into a savings account then being denied when you try to take out more than you actually put in.

[STEED]

Here is an interesting situation, today I was waiting at the checkout then these three folk stood behind me smelling of cigarette smoke and I mean they really stank and made me feel ill, I should had excised my human rights and had them ejected from the shop.

No I have not gone made, read on.

Last year a employee came into work smelling of smoke and a complaint was lodge by fellow employee's which resulted in this person being sacked for smoking in there own home and coming to work smelling of cigarettes, that sacked person took the case to the EU courts and lost.

The point is this do we non smoker's have the rights to take smoker's to court?

[Penelope_Grey]

yeah probably you do... what most non-smokers seem to forget is, all smokers were non-smokers once upon a time. And since some non-smokers are happy to treat smokers like second class citizens then I am not surprised.

[gnirtS]

Originally Posted by STEED

H
Last year a employee came into work smelling of smoke and a complaint was lodge by fellow employee's which resulted in this person being sacked for smoking in there own home and coming to work smelling of cigarettes, that sacked person took the case to the EU courts and lost.

The point is this do we non smoker's have the rights to take smoker's to court?

Thats fair enough, lots of places will sack you if you come into work smelling of alcohol and a fair few also have minimum standards of dress code/hygeine etc. Stinking like an ashtray could breach those.

For once the EU court made a sane ruling it seems.

Nobody cares what you do in your own home provided what you do stays there. Heavy smoking stinks on a person for ages, its no different to getting drunk at home the night before and turning up to work stinking of vodka.

[Penelope_Grey]

Its not fair at all. Taking someone to court because they smell of smoke. Maybe I should take my next door neighbour to court becuase he stink of BO, is that fair too?

Its a vast difference, smelling of smoke does not impair your peformance or standard of work, stinking of booze does becuase you are probably tired, not with it, and very hung over. There is a huge difference between smelling of smoke and smelling of alcohol. The EU court yet again has made a joke of things. Nothing sane there.

Well, I'm off to have a cigar now as its saturday. I will be sure to consider everything you said gnirtS... I will also consider how anybody could support Iran when they have 15 sailors in thier captivity.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Its not fair at all. Taking someone to court because they smell of smoke. Maybe I should take my next door neighbour to court becuase he stink of BO, is that fair too?

Once the door is open anything can happen. :hmm:

[gnirtS]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Its not fair at all. Taking someone to court because they smell of smoke. Maybe I should take my next door neighbour to court becuase he stink of BO, is that fair too?

Quite possible to be sacked from a job if you turn up in an unhygenic condition. Happens in lots of places.

Its a vast difference, smelling of smoke does not impair your peformance or standard of work, stinking of booze does becuase you are probably tired, not with it, and very hung over.

Not always. People can stink of alcohol even when not impaired at all.

There is a huge difference between smelling of smoke and smelling of alcohol.

No there isn't. You can be impaired from stinking of smoke, withdrawal, nerves, irritability and so on. Its no different to alcohol in that respect. Nicotine is very very addictive with quick and severe side effects.

The EU court yet again has made a joke of things. Nothing sane there.

I will also consider how anybody could support Iran when they have 15 sailors in thier captivity.

Well firstly nobody knows if they strayed into irans waters or not. If they did, then they deserved it. Secondly, dont forget UK/US arrested several Iranians who were diplomatically immune in iraq. We play dirty, they play dirty. Thats what happens.