Auto TDC consistently misses (torps arrive late always) - Page 5

JSF · 03-27-07, 04:46 PM

In manual or auto...WITH DOORS OPEN......1K yrds..no matter the speed I have to lead unit by 1/2 ship length to achieve hit in vicinity of middle.

One thought I had was that the speed of the fish default to slow irregardless if you select fast. Seems to have no effect one way or the other.

tommyk · 03-27-07, 04:58 PM

For me with slow speed the mk14 hits the spot but on high speed it misses (doors open with metric). Maybe speed of mk14 is too slow on high speed setting or TDC misjudges on high speed setting...

gnirtS · 03-27-07, 05:13 PM

I think the game is metric and converts.

A tell tale sign is when diving, depth call outs are "33ft,66ft,101ft" and so on. Odd until you realise thats 10 metre increments.

Also "depth under keel is over 3280ft sir". Odd figure until you realise thats 1000m.

That alone and the quick patch hints to me the game is doing some conversion to its metric based backbone. Possibly conversion errors in there.

I also suspect thats why "A" crashes to desktop. A dodgy conversion getting or sending an invalid response to set depth routine.

Im going to create some scenarios now to test Mk14 on low speed right-left and left-right.

Jungman · 03-27-07, 05:15 PM

Thanks for the reply. I think we can agree that then this problem lies only with the Mark 14 Fast speed setting (either Metric or Imperial), and not the scaling?

The game's Mark 23 is the exact same (except for the color) as the Mark 14 but with only the Fast setting available. that was true in real life (cheaper to make and no one used a slow torpedo anyway).

Now does the Mark 23 torpedo do this also?

If it does not, then there must exist either in the Data folder Library files a way to see what is the problem, or it is a hardcoded problem in EXE. A metric measure in place of a yard something. the numbers are quite close to that ratio Meter/yard.

Now we can make a quick fix either way until this 'bug' is confirmed/patched.

gnirtS · 03-27-07, 05:28 PM

Anyone know how to specift torpedo loadout in mission editor?

akdavis · 03-27-07, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSF

One thought I had was that the speed of the fish default to slow irregardless if you select fast. Seems to have no effect one way or the other.

No, the speeds are different.

gnirtS · 03-27-07, 06:06 PM

Some confirmation after a quick test.

Position keeper on and off for both.
Mk14 on high misses by 3.5 degrees or so after for a target range 1100yds doing 10kts

Mk14 on LOW speed hits very slightly after of aim point but only about 10-20ft under the same conditions.

This seems to work for auto and manual TDC and also left-right and right-left shots.

So it looks like the Mk14 isnt flying at the same speed the TDC thinks it is.

Anyone else want to verify?

akdavis · 03-27-07, 06:37 PM

I can also verify that crossing direction does not matter. Same error occurs with high speed torps on targets crossing R to L. All 4 torps below were fired with the same solution under the same conditions. HIGH speeds torps 1 & 3 miss behind. LOW speed torps 2 & 4 are on track for point of aim/calculated impact point. As you can see, increasing range and lower AOB will cause outright misses with HIGH speed torps, even using AUTO TDC.

gnirtS · 03-27-07, 07:02 PM

Same with manual TDC. Fiddly to aim as you need to take a range and send immediately prior to fire (with PK turned off). If the PK is turned on, regardless of where you look or what you send to TDC torpedos are always targetted to the X.

But it does seem to be a bug with Mk14 on high speed setting, low does work as advertised. Cant check other torps as no idea how to edit loadout in the game.

Jungman · 03-27-07, 07:06 PM

Results of more testing. The High Speed setting of the Mark 14 torpedo is actually only moving at 34 knots instead 46 knots.

Use the Training mission. Shoot Torp, it travelled 1272 yards to impact in 66 seconds.

1272/66 = 19.3 yards/sec.

Since 1 knot = 1 nm/hr = 2025.37 yards in 3600 seconds = 0.5626 yards/sec,

So 19.3/ (0.5626) = 34.25 knots.

A regular 46 knot torpedo moves at 25.88 yards/sec.

The value inside Torpedo_US.sim there is one that is set for 34 knots, under dud_reduction_speed. Plus the Dud chance is strange to determine.

I wonder if I placed in there the regular 46 knots, my High Speed Mark 14 torpedos would hit perfect? Is it a coinsidence? Can someone confirm this speed of 34 knots or did I mess it up?

You are shooting all Dud as far as the game is concerned and the reduced rate in speed is 34 knots.

NefariousKoel · 03-27-07, 07:31 PM

Good work Jungman, if this is the case.

I will test changing that value and see if that's what is the problem.

Although, I did have an instance earlier when I loaded up the game and, for once, the SecuRom didn't take forever to check as it often does. This time, all correct inputs and all my torpedoes on 0 to +2 spread hit the target.

I also wonder if it's a Fade type screwy thing.

Anyway, I'll check modifying the "dud" torpedo speed. That's a horrible horrible way to simulate a dud torpedo if it's the case.

gnirtS · 03-27-07, 07:51 PM

Just tested, both with and without duds enabled and can confirm this.

Shooting at targets 1112 and 2386 yards away using high and low speed torpedos. Stationary targets directly 0 degree bearing from the bow so no error introduced by torpedo turning etc. Ie totally straight line shots.

Formula used:

(Range in yards / 2025) * 3600 then dividing that figure by number of seconds to take to hit target.

Raw results:

Range 1112 yards, TDC claims 40 second travel time, it takes 56
Speed = 35.30kts

Range 1112 yards, TDC claims 40 seconds travel time, it takes 55.5
Speed = 35.35kts

Range 2386 yards, TDC claims 1min 30 seconds travel time, it takes 1min 57
Speed = 36.25kts

Range 2386 yards, TDC claims 1min 30 seconds travel time, it takes 1min 58 seconds
Speed = 36.30kts

Test average:- 35.8kts

High speed torpedos

Range 2382 yards, TDC claims 2 min 13 second travel, it takes 2min 13 seconds. TWICE
Speed = 31.8kts

Some variation in the numbers there but important to note the TDC time estime and actual are identical for LOW speed torpedos. With averaging etc this is probably 32kts

For the HIGH speed there seems to be more variation so would need more tests, the further the distance the better to reduce error. However it seems to be doing about 36kts. No higher. Definately not 46.

Looks like you've found out WHY these torps are missing. Hopefully its a simple 1 hex edit mod to fix. Could be fade but if it was id expect them to randomise speed somewhere and on all torps to keep it err "interesting".

Note this was on a "taking forever" game load attempt for me if it makes any difference.

Jungman · 03-27-07, 08:01 PM

That is what I find. Other speeds are 35.7, 36.1, 36.1, 32.57, 35.83 knots.

I did those with the change of the dud_speed_reduction edit and one other value of 36 (later that is the exit speed of the torpedo). origianl 34 = 08 42 hex 46 = 38 42 I thought the 0 was transposed from a 3, no luck for me there, but was a good guess.

Since the range calcualtion are being done in metric, the sim file has it in metric, maybe change that.

I could cheat and make the speed of 46 knots to something higher in that ratio of 46/36 then they would work as they are suppose too.

I will try that next. if it works...what the heck.

akdavis · 03-27-07, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NefariousKoel

Good work Jungman, if this is the case.

I will test changing that value and see if that's what is the problem.

Although, I did have an instance earlier when I loaded up the game and, for once, the SecuRom didn't take forever to check as it often does. This time, all correct inputs and all my torpedoes on 0 to +2 spread hit the target.

I also wonder if it's a Fade type screwy thing.

Not likely. Fade should be the last thing we blame when it comes to easily repeatable bugs.

Quote:

Anyway, I'll check modifying the "dud" torpedo speed. That's a horrible horrible way to simulate a dud torpedo if it's the case.

To be fair, Mk. 14s didn't always hold to consistent speeds, and there is also a crew trait that allows you to boost torpedo speed 20% (on that note, it would be interesting to see what happens if we introduced such a crew member into the situation with no other changes), so clearly some variable speed is built into the engine. However, if the above calculations are correct, then a "random" failure chance that makes the vast majority, if not all, 46 knot torpedos run more than 25% below their speed with no compensation from the TDC is absurd, to say the least. Also, why would the same torpedos be so damn good at pegging their 31 knot setting?

I'll admit that I'm seeing little, if any, spread in salvo due to individual torpedo variability, which is historically incorrect, but if the above variable is governing the observed behavior, then that is not the way to go about it.

Also, just for a guideline, A 40 sec. TDC estimate for 1000 yards would indicate the TDC is using a torp speed of 45 knots.

gnirtS · 03-27-07, 08:17 PM

Just to remove another variable, ive tried it with the game set to metric and get identical behavior.

Edit:- some more tests would be interesting here, get a large data set for all ranges out to max to see if torps always fire out at the same speed or do they vary slightly as would be expected.

My above data would hint it varies but a sample size of 4 with only 2 different ranges isnt enough to draw a conclusion from.

03-27-07, 04:58 PM	#62
tommyk Watch Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Near U-995 (Kiel, Germany) Posts: 337 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	For me with slow speed the mk14 hits the spot but on high speed it misses (doors open with metric). Maybe speed of mk14 is too slow on high speed setting or TDC misjudges on high speed setting... __________________ Gute Jagd und fette Beute!

03-27-07, 06:37 PM	#68
akdavis Samurai Navy Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 597 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I can also verify that crossing direction does not matter. Same error occurs with high speed torps on targets crossing R to L. All 4 torps below were fired with the same solution under the same conditions. HIGH speeds torps 1 & 3 miss behind. LOW speed torps 2 & 4 are on track for point of aim/calculated impact point. As you can see, increasing range and lower AOB will cause outright misses with HIGH speed torps, even using AUTO TDC. __________________ -AKD

03-27-07, 07:31 PM	#71
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Good work Jungman, if this is the case. I will test changing that value and see if that's what is the problem. Although, I did have an instance earlier when I loaded up the game and, for once, the SecuRom didn't take forever to check as it often does. This time, all correct inputs and all my torpedoes on 0 to +2 spread hit the target. I also wonder if it's a Fade type screwy thing. Anyway, I'll check modifying the "dud" torpedo speed. That's a horrible horrible way to simulate a dud torpedo if it's the case. __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

03-27-07, 04:46 PM	#61
JSF Engineer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 208 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	In manual or auto...WITH DOORS OPEN......1K yrds..no matter the speed I have to lead unit by 1/2 ship length to achieve hit in vicinity of middle. One thought I had was that the speed of the fish default to slow irregardless if you select fast. Seems to have no effect one way or the other.

03-27-07, 05:13 PM	#63
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I think the game is metric and converts. A tell tale sign is when diving, depth call outs are "33ft,66ft,101ft" and so on. Odd until you realise thats 10 metre increments. Also "depth under keel is over 3280ft sir". Odd figure until you realise thats 1000m. That alone and the quick patch hints to me the game is doing some conversion to its metric based backbone. Possibly conversion errors in there. I also suspect thats why "A" crashes to desktop. A dodgy conversion getting or sending an invalid response to set depth routine. Im going to create some scenarios now to test Mk14 on low speed right-left and left-right.

03-27-07, 05:15 PM	#64
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the reply. I think we can agree that then this problem lies only with the Mark 14 Fast speed setting (either Metric or Imperial), and not the scaling? The game's Mark 23 is the exact same (except for the color) as the Mark 14 but with only the Fast setting available. that was true in real life (cheaper to make and no one used a slow torpedo anyway). Now does the Mark 23 torpedo do this also? If it does not, then there must exist either in the Data folder Library files a way to see what is the problem, or it is a hardcoded problem in EXE. A metric measure in place of a yard something. the numbers are quite close to that ratio Meter/yard. Now we can make a quick fix either way until this 'bug' is confirmed/patched.

03-27-07, 05:28 PM	#65
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Anyone know how to specift torpedo loadout in mission editor?

03-27-07, 06:06 PM	#67
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Some confirmation after a quick test. Position keeper on and off for both. Mk14 on high misses by 3.5 degrees or so after for a target range 1100yds doing 10kts Mk14 on LOW speed hits very slightly after of aim point but only about 10-20ft under the same conditions. This seems to work for auto and manual TDC and also left-right and right-left shots. So it looks like the Mk14 isnt flying at the same speed the TDC thinks it is. Anyone else want to verify?

03-27-07, 07:02 PM	#69
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Same with manual TDC. Fiddly to aim as you need to take a range and send immediately prior to fire (with PK turned off). If the PK is turned on, regardless of where you look or what you send to TDC torpedos are always targetted to the X. But it does seem to be a bug with Mk14 on high speed setting, low does work as advertised. Cant check other torps as no idea how to edit loadout in the game.

03-27-07, 07:06 PM	#70
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Results of more testing. The High Speed setting of the Mark 14 torpedo is actually only moving at 34 knots instead 46 knots. Use the Training mission. Shoot Torp, it travelled 1272 yards to impact in 66 seconds. 1272/66 = 19.3 yards/sec. Since 1 knot = 1 nm/hr = 2025.37 yards in 3600 seconds = 0.5626 yards/sec, So 19.3/ (0.5626) = 34.25 knots. A regular 46 knot torpedo moves at 25.88 yards/sec. The value inside Torpedo_US.sim there is one that is set for 34 knots, under dud_reduction_speed. Plus the Dud chance is strange to determine. I wonder if I placed in there the regular 46 knots, my High Speed Mark 14 torpedos would hit perfect? Is it a coinsidence? Can someone confirm this speed of 34 knots or did I mess it up? You are shooting all Dud as far as the game is concerned and the reduced rate in speed is 34 knots.

03-27-07, 07:51 PM	#72
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Just tested, both with and without duds enabled and can confirm this. Shooting at targets 1112 and 2386 yards away using high and low speed torpedos. Stationary targets directly 0 degree bearing from the bow so no error introduced by torpedo turning etc. Ie totally straight line shots. Formula used: (Range in yards / 2025) * 3600 then dividing that figure by number of seconds to take to hit target. Raw results: Range 1112 yards, TDC claims 40 second travel time, it takes 56 Speed = 35.30kts Range 1112 yards, TDC claims 40 seconds travel time, it takes 55.5 Speed = 35.35kts Range 2386 yards, TDC claims 1min 30 seconds travel time, it takes 1min 57 Speed = 36.25kts Range 2386 yards, TDC claims 1min 30 seconds travel time, it takes 1min 58 seconds Speed = 36.30kts Test average:- 35.8kts High speed torpedos Range 2382 yards, TDC claims 2 min 13 second travel, it takes 2min 13 seconds. TWICE Speed = 31.8kts Some variation in the numbers there but important to note the TDC time estime and actual are identical for LOW speed torpedos. With averaging etc this is probably 32kts For the HIGH speed there seems to be more variation so would need more tests, the further the distance the better to reduce error. However it seems to be doing about 36kts. No higher. Definately not 46. Looks like you've found out WHY these torps are missing. Hopefully its a simple 1 hex edit mod to fix. Could be fade but if it was id expect them to randomise speed somewhere and on all torps to keep it err "interesting". Note this was on a "taking forever" game load attempt for me if it makes any difference.

03-27-07, 08:01 PM	#73
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	That is what I find. Other speeds are 35.7, 36.1, 36.1, 32.57, 35.83 knots. I did those with the change of the dud_speed_reduction edit and one other value of 36 (later that is the exit speed of the torpedo). origianl 34 = 08 42 hex 46 = 38 42 I thought the 0 was transposed from a 3, no luck for me there, but was a good guess. Since the range calcualtion are being done in metric, the sim file has it in metric, maybe change that. I could cheat and make the speed of 46 knots to something higher in that ratio of 46/36 then they would work as they are suppose too. I will try that next. if it works...what the heck.

03-27-07, 08:17 PM	#75
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Just to remove another variable, ive tried it with the game set to metric and get identical behavior. Edit:- some more tests would be interesting here, get a large data set for all ranges out to max to see if torps always fire out at the same speed or do they vary slightly as would be expected. My above data would hint it varies but a sample size of 4 with only 2 different ranges isnt enough to draw a conclusion from.