Possible TDC bug (auto and manual)

gnirtS · 03-24-07, 09:17 PM

Been playing all night with various custom missions to look at the TDC and i've found whats either a bug or FADE gone wrong (subtle bug that messes things up without people really noticing!)

Firstly in auto TDC it appears to underestimate the speed of a target by just under 1kt. This means your torpedo shots are going to go aft of where you aim.

Just an example, a **** passing at 90 degrees to you at 1000 yards doing 12 knots the torpedos hit about 3.5 degrees aft of where you're aiming. Ie you aim for the very bow you'll hit somewhere in the first 1/3. Use auto/lock and it'll hit rear 1/3. Aim for the engines/keel and you'll miss.

Only solutions ive found are to either use a spread offset or aim ahead of where you want to hit. Problem with this method is just how far you need to aim varies with targets speed, course, AOB, your torpedo speed and so on.

You can test this yourself by doing the torpedo attack tutorial, aim for a clear obvious part of the target like the flag pole then watch where it hits. Stationary targets should hit spot on, the faster a targer goes the further aft you'll hit.

Now for an issue ive found with manual TDC.

Unless im mistaken the TDC will ALWAYS fire at the centre of the ship regardless of where on it your scope is pointed. It seems the bearing isnt automatically sent to the TDC and it just uses the centre bearing. If there is a MARK button, i cant find it.
The only work around ive found is to combine the torpedo spread dial with the attack map and guesstimate how much you need to offset to hit left/right of centre. Its hardly an exact science though.

Creating a custom mission with a group of 5 boats all heading on a straight line and course you can play with/verify both the above.

Is anyone else experiencing either of these symptoms? Either their bugs, im doing something wrong or much talked about FADE has decided it hates me, activated and causing subtle alterations in my game.

The problem at the moment is its impossible to tell!

Der Teddy Bar · 03-24-07, 09:27 PM

I presume that you have opened the torpedo door before firing the torpedo?

Also your scope should not continually update the TDC as that is not how it worked in WWII.

gnirtS · 03-24-07, 09:29 PM

Yep doors open, instant fire.

Scope not updating TDC is fair enough but it then needs a "MARK" button otherwise its impossible to aim at anything other than the centre of the ship.

Auto TDC is definatley out here by just under a knot and manual i have no way of targetting other parts of a ship unless i use the spread offset dial.

submariner · 03-24-07, 09:40 PM

Yes, you are correct. I used manual targeting on SH3 and at least the Gyro Angle was displayed at the scope screen ...... but in SH4 the gyro is really hard to read with any precision ..... and since the scope only seems to 'mark' a ship when locked .... there seems to be a disconnect between scope and gyro angle.

I was very good at SH3 manual targeting, but on SH4 I consistently miss aft .... just as you describe.

I'm very dissapointed with implementation of the tdc & gyro in SH4 ..... once you had the gyro set in SH3 you could easily fire multiple quick shots at a convoy by point and shoot ...... I can't do this in SH4 unless I fiddle with the 'lock' or red button or tube select between shots ?

gnirtS · 03-25-07, 10:55 AM

If thats true then the only way to target different parts of a ship in manual will be by using the spread button - cant imagine thats through design.

Add that to faulty TDC speed measuring in auto mode and targeting is nowhere near as nice as SH3.

joea · 03-25-07, 11:04 AM

Have you guys considered that the TDC and aiming procedure were different in the USN and Kriegsmarine?

Warden · 03-25-07, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnirtS

Now for an issue ive found with manual TDC.

Unless im mistaken the TDC will ALWAYS fire at the centre of the ship regardless of where on it your scope is pointed. It seems the bearing isnt automatically sent to the TDC and it just uses the centre bearing.

I don't have the game, but this scares the hell out of me, can somone please do some experiments to determine if this is in fact happening and post the results?

mookiemookie · 03-25-07, 03:06 PM

I came searching the forum to see if anyone else was having this problem. Good to see it's not just me! I know I'm no dummy, and I'm opening the doors. I always miss aft though.

So the workaround is to use the spread dial to "lead your target" a few degrees?

gnirtS · 03-25-07, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I came searching the forum to see if anyone else was having this problem. Good to see it's not just me! I know I'm no dummy, and I'm opening the doors. I always miss aft though.

So the workaround is to use the spread dial to "lead your target" a few degrees?

Assuming you use auto TDC, in which case yes you can use spread or just visually aim a bit in front of where you want to hit

-Pv- · 03-25-07, 08:20 PM

Click the update status button in the TDC display and your shots will be moch more accurate. You may have to do it several times when aiming over a long period.

Doors:

While setting up the attack I pre-open ALL the doors I intend to use. You can also use this time to set torpedo data (speed, depth, and spread for each tube. Click on each tube, wait for the door open message, open the other doors, using the last door opened to fire the first shot and fire your other tubes. Your shots will cycle much faster. It appears your close doors command cycle is not in effect until the tube is fired?
-Pv-

gnirtS · 03-25-07, 08:50 PM

Just tried a lot with manual TDC and found no real issues with speed or aiming, now i've worked out that sending range also sends bearing its fine for me, spread also works.

The main bug appears to be in auto TDC and its entering of speed.

As for opening all doors you intend to use, general consensus so far is you cant do it in the game,opening a door shuts the others.

Spectre-63 · 03-26-07, 12:11 AM

Just a thought: is it possible that, in their rush to add Imperial measurements, they missed a conversion somewhere along the way? That would certainly account for my ranges being about 1/3rd short and all the problems with automatic targeting hitting behind the point of aim.

Tobowsi · 03-26-07, 11:25 PM

The auto TDC hitting way aft problem seems a lot worse for me when I have the torp speed on high. When I have it on low, the fish hits fairly close to where I have the crosshairs when I fire (yes, I open the tube doors beforehand in case you were wondering). However, when the speed is set on high, I can aim even in front of the target, as far forward as I can and still see the triangle indicating a solution, and I'm lucky if I hit the aft 1/3 of the ship, if it hits at all. (The only time I bother with using the high speed anymore is with a completely stationary target)

Maybe sometime I might time some shots on low and high with a known distance and see if the torps are really travelling at their advertised speeds of 31 and 46 knots. Maybe the problem is something simple like the TDC computing a solution based on a speed of 46 knots and the reused code has the torpedo travel at high at the old "fast" speed of 44, so the torpedo takes longer to get there than expected and therefore hits aft.

NefariousKoel · 03-26-07, 11:30 PM

After trying a few workarounds 'til this gets patched, I've been using this:

1)You know the target speed. Add 2.5 knots onto it in the TDC.

2) Send a Range input in. Preferrably take an AoB and Stadi reading (in that order) but if in a hurry such as a salvo, then go ahead and just hit the input button for range.

3) Fire already dammit!

Jungman · 03-26-07, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobowsi

The auto TDC hitting way aft problem seems a lot worse for me when I have the torp speed on high. When I have it on low, the fish hits fairly close to where I have the crosshairs when I fire (yes, I open the tube doors beforehand in case you were wondering). However, when the speed is set on high, I can aim even in front of the target, as far forward as I can and still see the triangle indicating a solution, and I'm lucky if I hit the aft 1/3 of the ship, if it hits at all. (The only time I bother with using the high speed anymore is with a completely stationary target)

Maybe sometime I might time some shots on low and high with a known distance and see if the torps are really travelling at their advertised speeds of 31 and 46 knots. Maybe the problem is something simple like the TDC computing a solution based on a speed of 46 knots and the reused code has the torpedo travel at high at the old "fast" speed of 44, so the torpedo takes longer to get there than expected and therefore hits aft.

Yes. I agree. I am going to check the actual hex data to see what they are set for. In SH3 one of the old 'cold' Electric torps were actual set 2 knots slow...hitting in the aft. It was set for 28 knots while in the game it was claimed to be 30 knots. I made a big fuss about, but no one really took it seriously.

Look for the discussion with Elainaba IIRC about the old slow cold Electric speed and range.

03-24-07, 09:17 PM	#1
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Possible TDC bug (auto and manual) Been playing all night with various custom missions to look at the TDC and i've found whats either a bug or FADE gone wrong (subtle bug that messes things up without people really noticing!) Firstly in auto TDC it appears to underestimate the speed of a target by just under 1kt. This means your torpedo shots are going to go aft of where you aim. Just an example, a **** passing at 90 degrees to you at 1000 yards doing 12 knots the torpedos hit about 3.5 degrees aft of where you're aiming. Ie you aim for the very bow you'll hit somewhere in the first 1/3. Use auto/lock and it'll hit rear 1/3. Aim for the engines/keel and you'll miss. Only solutions ive found are to either use a spread offset or aim ahead of where you want to hit. Problem with this method is just how far you need to aim varies with targets speed, course, AOB, your torpedo speed and so on. You can test this yourself by doing the torpedo attack tutorial, aim for a clear obvious part of the target like the flag pole then watch where it hits. Stationary targets should hit spot on, the faster a targer goes the further aft you'll hit. Now for an issue ive found with manual TDC. Unless im mistaken the TDC will ALWAYS fire at the centre of the ship regardless of where on it your scope is pointed. It seems the bearing isnt automatically sent to the TDC and it just uses the centre bearing. If there is a MARK button, i cant find it. The only work around ive found is to combine the torpedo spread dial with the attack map and guesstimate how much you need to offset to hit left/right of centre. Its hardly an exact science though. Creating a custom mission with a group of 5 boats all heading on a straight line and course you can play with/verify both the above. Is anyone else experiencing either of these symptoms? Either their bugs, im doing something wrong or much talked about FADE has decided it hates me, activated and causing subtle alterations in my game. The problem at the moment is its impossible to tell!

03-25-07, 03:06 PM	#8
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	I came searching the forum to see if anyone else was having this problem. Good to see it's not just me! I know I'm no dummy, and I'm opening the doors. I always miss aft though. So the workaround is to use the spread dial to "lead your target" a few degrees? __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

03-26-07, 11:30 PM	#14
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	After trying a few workarounds 'til this gets patched, I've been using this: 1)You know the target speed. Add 2.5 knots onto it in the TDC. 2) Send a Range input in. Preferrably take an AoB and Stadi reading (in that order) but if in a hurry such as a salvo, then go ahead and just hit the input button for range. 3) Fire already dammit! __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

03-24-07, 09:27 PM	#2
Der Teddy Bar Blade Master Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,388 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I presume that you have opened the torpedo door before firing the torpedo? Also your scope should not continually update the TDC as that is not how it worked in WWII.

03-24-07, 09:29 PM	#3
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Yep doors open, instant fire. Scope not updating TDC is fair enough but it then needs a "MARK" button otherwise its impossible to aim at anything other than the centre of the ship. Auto TDC is definatley out here by just under a knot and manual i have no way of targetting other parts of a ship unless i use the spread offset dial.

03-24-07, 09:40 PM	#4
submariner Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 13 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes, you are correct. I used manual targeting on SH3 and at least the Gyro Angle was displayed at the scope screen ...... but in SH4 the gyro is really hard to read with any precision ..... and since the scope only seems to 'mark' a ship when locked .... there seems to be a disconnect between scope and gyro angle. I was very good at SH3 manual targeting, but on SH4 I consistently miss aft .... just as you describe. I'm very dissapointed with implementation of the tdc & gyro in SH4 ..... once you had the gyro set in SH3 you could easily fire multiple quick shots at a convoy by point and shoot ...... I can't do this in SH4 unless I fiddle with the 'lock' or red button or tube select between shots ?

03-25-07, 10:55 AM	#5
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	If thats true then the only way to target different parts of a ship in manual will be by using the spread button - cant imagine thats through design. Add that to faulty TDC speed measuring in auto mode and targeting is nowhere near as nice as SH3.

03-25-07, 11:04 AM	#6
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Have you guys considered that the TDC and aiming procedure were different in the USN and Kriegsmarine?

03-25-07, 08:20 PM	#10
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Click the update status button in the TDC display and your shots will be moch more accurate. You may have to do it several times when aiming over a long period. Doors: While setting up the attack I pre-open ALL the doors I intend to use. You can also use this time to set torpedo data (speed, depth, and spread for each tube. Click on each tube, wait for the door open message, open the other doors, using the last door opened to fire the first shot and fire your other tubes. Your shots will cycle much faster. It appears your close doors command cycle is not in effect until the tube is fired? -Pv-

03-25-07, 08:50 PM	#11
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Just tried a lot with manual TDC and found no real issues with speed or aiming, now i've worked out that sending range also sends bearing its fine for me, spread also works. The main bug appears to be in auto TDC and its entering of speed. As for opening all doors you intend to use, general consensus so far is you cant do it in the game,opening a door shuts the others.

03-26-07, 12:11 AM	#12
Spectre-63 Medic Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 159 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Just a thought: is it possible that, in their rush to add Imperial measurements, they missed a conversion somewhere along the way? That would certainly account for my ranges being about 1/3rd short and all the problems with automatic targeting hitting behind the point of aim.

03-26-07, 11:25 PM	#13
Tobowsi Seaman Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 36 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The auto TDC hitting way aft problem seems a lot worse for me when I have the torp speed on high. When I have it on low, the fish hits fairly close to where I have the crosshairs when I fire (yes, I open the tube doors beforehand in case you were wondering). However, when the speed is set on high, I can aim even in front of the target, as far forward as I can and still see the triangle indicating a solution, and I'm lucky if I hit the aft 1/3 of the ship, if it hits at all. (The only time I bother with using the high speed anymore is with a completely stationary target) Maybe sometime I might time some shots on low and high with a known distance and see if the torps are really travelling at their advertised speeds of 31 and 46 knots. Maybe the problem is something simple like the TDC computing a solution based on a speed of 46 knots and the reused code has the torpedo travel at high at the old "fast" speed of 44, so the torpedo takes longer to get there than expected and therefore hits aft.