Unnarmed 17 year old shot dead "in self defence" - Page 5

mookiemookie · 03-21-12, 11:37 AM

I own a hooded sweatshirt. Should I be shot because of it?

Ducimus · 03-21-12, 11:41 AM

Teens like to think their tough. Some dress to look tough, doesn't mean they are. Where i grew up in california, you had two types of "gangsta's". The real ones that id call "gangbangers", and the "posers". The poser's you laughed at for trying to be all bad, the gangbangers (aka cholo's,) you didn't screw with. This kid was probably worth laughing at, not shooting at.

gimpy117 · 03-21-12, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I own a hooded sweatshirt. Should I be shot because of it?

I do too, but i doubt it will happen because I assume we are both white

and why does that picture of the sweatshirt make him "gangster?" I have plenty of hoodies, and when it's chilly I also put the hood up

vienna · 03-21-12, 12:46 PM

Going back to why the Feds have moved into this case, I don't think it is a racial issue. Like so many actions, the main reason the local and state agencies are dragging their feet may have nothing to do with race but more with money. The issue of liability spreads farther than Zimmerman and his activities. The local and state agencies are in a bit of a no win situation: (1) if they move swiftly and do a thorough investigation, they may uncover facts and situations potentially self-incriminating; (2) if they don't do a thorough investigation, they may be open to liability for not doing their duty. In the first case, they may uncover lapse or flaws in the firearms permit process and/or the granting of the permit, they may uncover indicators of behavioral problems regarding Zimmerman that should have prompted action by the authorities not undertaken (sort of like when police answer multiple domestic abuse calls at a location, do nothing, and a death results). In the second case, by trying to aviod complicity in actions that may have resulted in the incident by stalling or ignoring the crime, they leave themselves open to civil, if not criminal, liability. No matter what happens now, the local and state governments are in for one hell of a large lawsuit. Race is not the more likely issue in the actions of the authorities; not having to make a huge payout is the probable underlying cause...

...

Sailor Steve · 03-21-12, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I was never targeting anyone on this site for claiming that more guns would and less restrictions make things safer I have heard thus numerous times in public form co-workers and friends in various settings and places.It seems to be one of the gun opinions floating out there I am rather surprised no one else has heard it before.Or perhaps some people are little quick to assume something is targeted at them.

Just the opposite, actually. It has been brought up here, and more than once, which is why I was the second one to point out that it wasn't brought up here this time. There are many who jump to that position automatically, just as there are many who instantly say that more gun control is the only answer.

The opinions are out there, and they are both equally ludicrous. I just didn't want a thread this important going from what it was to something else.

Stealhead · 03-21-12, 01:11 PM

I can certainly agree with you on this.

I love yubbas excuse that only gangsters wear hooded sweat shirts when you can buy hoodies from nearly every clothing company there is I own several hooded sweat shirts and I am no gangster either.

Yubbas check list for a person up to no good:
If person passes two or more he is dangerous and can be shot.becuase he scares yubba and Florida law says; "reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other problem is the laws wording against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other***8217;s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if1)8195;He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"

1.Non white male
2. Male wearing hoodie(double points for a non white)
3. Male walking down any street wearing hoodie or other wise looking like a gangster.(double points for a non white)
4.Any person that fits yubbas overly paranoid fear of living in crime ridden Florida that has a murder rate higher than any war zone.

To me the whole problem with self defense laws that are worded like Florida's is that they give overly paranoid persons more or less a legal right to shot a person that falls into there definition of a dangerous person and shot them even if the person does not make a clearly threatening act or does something.

The whole problem with Florida law is the wording it allows an overly fearful overly paranoid or overly aggressive to use deadly force when it may not have been needed and an aggressive person if in a situation with few direct witnesses can easily have been the provoker but when the other person is dead there is no one left to ask.

Even before this indecent some Florida legislators have been concerned about the self defense laws wording and wanted to have the law revised.Now even the very Conservative state
Governor Rick Scott says that the law needs to looked over and revised.As is right now DAs have been unwilling to touch any self defense case because the wording makes ti a hard case to prove was the person defending them selves really in immanent danger or not. From what I understand the NRA lobbed hard to have alot added to laws wording.

I am not saying that every or even most gun owners in Florida are paranoid or aggressive the problem is that the wording of the law to the mindset of an overly paranoid and fearful person the wording allows them to create the immanence of danger even if none truly exists.

breadcatcher101 · 03-21-12, 02:09 PM

Was it racial?

Oh yeah.

If it had been a black guy shooting a white guy it would not have even made the news at the state level.

The DOJ, FBI, and everyone but the UN would not be involved.

And if he goes to court and a all black jury doesn't convict him there will still be those who would scream at the top of their lungs for his head.

None of us were there and IMO if the police thought he was in the wrong they would have acted on it at that time. This is not a "closed case". Charges are still pending possibly as the investigation goes on but the masses are already storming the castle with torches and pitchforks based on media speculations and such.

What a shame.

Stealhead · 03-21-12, 02:15 PM

I am bit confused by your post you seem to contradict yourself somewhat.

Surely you must jest if you think that this would have not gotten alot of attention if the races where reversed and Zimmerman was black
and Martin white that the Zimmerman would have been treated the same or that it would not have made news.I bet that it would have gotten
alot of attention and much faster if the roles where reversed.

breadcatcher101 · 03-21-12, 02:22 PM

I don't really.

I am saying it is racial on the part of those who act just because the boy was black. Who cares what his race was? Yet because he was black and not white so many levels of goverment get involved.

August · 03-21-12, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I am bit confused by your post you seem to contradict yourself somewhat.

Surely you must jest if you think that this would have not gotten alot of attention if the races where reversed and Zimmerman was black
and Martin white that the Zimmerman would have been treated the same or that it would not have made news.I bet that it would have gotten
alot of attention and much faster if the roles where reversed.

I believe that Zimmerman, in spite of the last name, does not identify as white but rather as a Latino.

Stealhead · 03-21-12, 02:29 PM

I think that if the boy had been white and Zimmerman black the local PD would have treated him very differently in particular considering the fact he has a record.There would have been no need for others to get involved because the PD would have look into much closer and assumed that Zimmerman was not fully truthful.

I agree that some people desire to be overly politically correct in the US but anyone that denies that race is still an issue for many is blind.

The government got involved because it is very clear that the Sanford PD did not even seem to take into question anything that happened even if you look it form a colorblind standpoint the incident sounds very questionable.

@ august My understanding is that Zimmerman is half white half Latino.And even if he considers himself Latino that does not exclude the chance that he might have had a racial motive.I feel that no matter the race in nay crime or possible crime if those involved are of separate race or ethnicity and there is any sign of a racial motive it needs to be looked into.

I don't care if it is a Chinese guy and black woman or a latino and a white if there is any evidence to suggest a racial motive it should be looked at.Many of the residents in this community have said that Zimmerman had a fixation on young black males and he clearly states on his 911 call "these *******s always get away" the Sanford Police now even admit that they "found" another tape where Zimmerman appears to be saying "****ing coons" under his breath during the call.

breadcatcher101 · 03-21-12, 02:31 PM

No. I stand by my statement.

Case in point: The flash mobs recently where blacks would storm whites and inflict harm--not a peep out of the DOJ.

If the roles were reversed they would have been all over it.

August · 03-21-12, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I think that if the boy had been white and Zimmerman black the local PD would have treated him very differently in particular considering the fact he has a record.There would have been no need for others to get involved because the PD would have look into much closer and assumed that Zimmerman was not fully truthful.

I agree that some people desire to be overly politically correct in the US but anyone that denies that race is still an issue for many is blind.

The government got involved because it is very clear that the Sanford PD did not even seem to take into question anything that happened even if you look it form a colorblind standpoint the incident sounds very questionable.

There is at least one level of government between the Sanford PD and what you are calling "the government". The Feds jumped the gun and I believe they did so purely for political reasons. Would they still have stepped in so quickly if Zimmerman were black and the victim white? I seriously doubt it.

August · 03-21-12, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

@ august My understanding is that Zimmerman is half white half Latino.

His lawyer is the one who made the distinction, perhaps to deflect charges of racism.

Stealhead · 03-21-12, 02:40 PM

That makes no sense does his lawyer think that only white are seen as racist?

I have encountered plenty of people of various races that are clearly racist to some race other than themselves.

For example the term "spic" was a racial slur created by blacks.

Some latinos use the term monos which means monkeys as a racial slur towards blacks.

03-21-12, 11:37 AM	#61
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	I own a hooded sweatshirt. Should I be shot because of it? __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

03-21-12, 12:46 PM	#64
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,555 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Going back to why the Feds have moved into this case, I don't think it is a racial issue. Like so many actions, the main reason the local and state agencies are dragging their feet may have nothing to do with race but more with money. The issue of liability spreads farther than Zimmerman and his activities. The local and state agencies are in a bit of a no win situation: (1) if they move swiftly and do a thorough investigation, they may uncover facts and situations potentially self-incriminating; (2) if they don't do a thorough investigation, they may be open to liability for not doing their duty. In the first case, they may uncover lapse or flaws in the firearms permit process and/or the granting of the permit, they may uncover indicators of behavioral problems regarding Zimmerman that should have prompted action by the authorities not undertaken (sort of like when police answer multiple domestic abuse calls at a location, do nothing, and a death results). In the second case, by trying to aviod complicity in actions that may have resulted in the incident by stalling or ignoring the crime, they leave themselves open to civil, if not criminal, liability. No matter what happens now, the local and state governments are in for one hell of a large lawsuit. Race is not the more likely issue in the actions of the authorities; not having to make a huge payout is the probable underlying cause... ... __________________ __________________________________________________ __

03-21-12, 01:11 PM	#66
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I can certainly agree with you on this. I love yubbas excuse that only gangsters wear hooded sweat shirts when you can buy hoodies from nearly every clothing company there is I own several hooded sweat shirts and I am no gangster either. Yubbas check list for a person up to no good: If person passes two or more he is dangerous and can be shot.becuase he scares yubba and Florida law says; "reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other problem is the laws wording against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other**8217;s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if1)8195;He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony" 1.Non white male 2. Male wearing hoodie(double points for a non white) 3. Male walking down any street wearing hoodie or other wise looking like a gangster.(double points for a non white) 4.Any person that fits yubbas overly paranoid fear of living in crime ridden Florida that has a murder rate higher than any war zone. To me the whole problem with self defense laws that are worded like Florida's is that they give overly paranoid persons more or less a legal right to shot a person that falls into there definition of a dangerous person and shot them even if the person does not make a clearly threatening act or does something. The whole problem with Florida law is the wording it allows an overly fearful overly paranoid or overly aggressive to use deadly force when it may not have been needed and an aggressive person if in a situation with few direct witnesses can easily have been the provoker but when the other person is dead there is no one left to ask. Even before this indecent some Florida legislators have been concerned about the self defense laws wording and wanted to have the law revised.Now even the very Conservative state Governor Rick Scott says that the law needs to looked over and revised.As is right now DAs have been unwilling to touch any self defense case because the wording makes ti a hard case to prove was the person defending them selves really in immanent danger or not. From what I understand the NRA lobbed hard to have alot added to laws wording. I am not saying that every or even most gun owners in Florida are paranoid or aggressive the problem is that the wording of the law to the mindset of an overly paranoid and fearful person the wording allows them to create the immanence of danger even if none truly exists. Last edited by Stealhead; 03-21-12 at 01:23 PM.*

03-21-12, 11:41 AM	#62
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Teens like to think their tough. Some dress to look tough, doesn't mean they are. Where i grew up in california, you had two types of "gangsta's". The real ones that id call "gangbangers", and the "posers". The poser's you laughed at for trying to be all bad, the gangbangers (aka cholo's,) you didn't screw with. This kid was probably worth laughing at, not shooting at.

03-21-12, 02:09 PM	#67
breadcatcher101 Captain Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 546 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Was it racial? Oh yeah. If it had been a black guy shooting a white guy it would not have even made the news at the state level. The DOJ, FBI, and everyone but the UN would not be involved. And if he goes to court and a all black jury doesn't convict him there will still be those who would scream at the top of their lungs for his head. None of us were there and IMO if the police thought he was in the wrong they would have acted on it at that time. This is not a "closed case". Charges are still pending possibly as the investigation goes on but the masses are already storming the castle with torches and pitchforks based on media speculations and such. What a shame.

03-21-12, 02:15 PM	#68
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I am bit confused by your post you seem to contradict yourself somewhat. Surely you must jest if you think that this would have not gotten alot of attention if the races where reversed and Zimmerman was black and Martin white that the Zimmerman would have been treated the same or that it would not have made news.I bet that it would have gotten alot of attention and much faster if the roles where reversed.

03-21-12, 02:22 PM	#69
breadcatcher101 Captain Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 546 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I don't really. I am saying it is racial on the part of those who act just because the boy was black. Who cares what his race was? Yet because he was black and not white so many levels of goverment get involved.

03-21-12, 02:29 PM	#71
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I think that if the boy had been white and Zimmerman black the local PD would have treated him very differently in particular considering the fact he has a record.There would have been no need for others to get involved because the PD would have look into much closer and assumed that Zimmerman was not fully truthful. I agree that some people desire to be overly politically correct in the US but anyone that denies that race is still an issue for many is blind. The government got involved because it is very clear that the Sanford PD did not even seem to take into question anything that happened even if you look it form a colorblind standpoint the incident sounds very questionable. @ august My understanding is that Zimmerman is half white half Latino.And even if he considers himself Latino that does not exclude the chance that he might have had a racial motive.I feel that no matter the race in nay crime or possible crime if those involved are of separate race or ethnicity and there is any sign of a racial motive it needs to be looked into. I don't care if it is a Chinese guy and black woman or a latino and a white if there is any evidence to suggest a racial motive it should be looked at.Many of the residents in this community have said that Zimmerman had a fixation on young black males and he clearly states on his 911 call "these *****s always get away" the Sanford Police now even admit that they "found" another tape where Zimmerman appears to be saying "**ing coons" under his breath during the call.

03-21-12, 02:31 PM	#72
breadcatcher101 Captain Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 546 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	No. I stand by my statement. Case in point: The flash mobs recently where blacks would storm whites and inflict harm--not a peep out of the DOJ. If the roles were reversed they would have been all over it.

03-21-12, 02:40 PM	#75
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	That makes no sense does his lawyer think that only white are seen as racist? I have encountered plenty of people of various races that are clearly racist to some race other than themselves. For example the term "spic" was a racial slur created by blacks. Some latinos use the term monos which means monkeys as a racial slur towards blacks.