Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[CCIP]

I think I mostly answered my own questions there by taking a look at the sensors file.

Looks quite a bit like stock, actually. I'm thinking it might be worth reducing the sonar arcs a little bit to avoid overkill by some of the more persistent ships later in the war, but we'll see :hmm:

I'm really starting to come around to your way of managing these things, actually. As much as it's good to have escorts chasing you for a long time, it seems that an occasional short but harsh attack and a better chance of the enemy getting a quick fix on you may well benefit the game mechanics and balance the dangers more realistically.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by CCIP

CB - just tried playing a bit with yours, and it seems pretty interesting so far.

Two questions:

1) Did you set a minimum depth for enemy hydrophone detections or do they can they hear you on the surface, too? Just checking, sort of suspicious if it was radar that did me in. It would really mess things up a bit for me if they could, but I think by default they aren't.

2) The sonar pinging is ever-present, but I'm wondering how often they actually ping me directly as opposed to just hearing me. :hmm:

no just the min and max distances for the hydrophones--everything else in the dat file is as stock--

re the active--shows you how dynamic the set up as other folks have said they rarely get pinged at all---me i get pinged at the normal rate (if there is such a thing)

yup i just wanted DD's that did their job--were alert as dynamic as possible and aggressive--beyond that i didn't try to get too finicky about it--it's too easy to get bogged down in trying to force the AI to do what you want it to--i wanted the AI to do what it was meant to do---work to prevent me from sinking merchants--that's the game at the end of the day-

[CCIP]

Gotcha, thanks!

I think it might be wise to tone down the sonar arcs just a little bit to prevent permanent locks from later in the war (say, even to 70 degrees rather than the full 90), but otherwise I'm definitely 'on board' with your changes.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Gotcha, thanks!

I think it might be wise to tone down the sonar arcs just a little bit to prevent permanent locks from later in the war (say, even to 70 degrees rather than the full 90), but otherwise I'm definitely 'on board' with your changes.

ok thanks!
let me know how you get on with the reduced sonar arcs--

[CCIP]

Just wondering by the way, under what conditions do the hydrophones 'hear' you? Is it anytime you go to faster speeds, anywhere?

Just curious, actually, since I'm wondering whether Jungman's min range cutoff for sonar would be good to include or not. He had the sonars cut off at 200m, to simulate the ASDIC arc, but actually - from playing with it for a while, I'd decided that what this resulted in was constantly inaccurate drops. Because the sonar cut off at 200m, while you could easily make a dash at flank and dive deeper, which resulted in drops that were about 30m too shallow and a good distance further behind your position (which would not be a bad thing in itself, if it didn't happen EVERY time).

We'll see. So far I've only had a couple of encounters in campaign, and both resulted in the ship picking me up on radar from around 4km, giving me a chase, making a single albeit inaccurate pass (they couldn't get sonar contact), then going back to their usual duty.

What I DID like very much, is that they dropped closer and deeper than usual despite that - before, they would lose contact with you as soon as you went under the surface, dropping too shallow and often blowing themselves up ( ). Now, it seems that until you go silent, they have an idea how deep you would be. Which makes sense to me, because no real DD captain would be dumb enough to assume you only dove to Periscope Depth when he showed up

"uber" hydrophones are the way to go, I think

[CB..]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Just wondering by the way, under what conditions do the hydrophones 'hear' you? Is it anytime you go to faster speeds, anywhere?

Just curious, actually, since I'm wondering whether Jungman's min range cutoff for sonar would be good to include or not. He had the sonars cut off at 200m, to simulate the ASDIC arc, but actually - from playing with it for a while, I'd decided that what this resulted in was constantly inaccurate drops. Because the sonar cut off at 200m, while you could easily make a dash at flank and dive deeper, which resulted in drops that were about 30m too shallow and a good distance further behind your position (which would not be a bad thing in itself, if it didn't happen EVERY time).

We'll see. So far I've only had a couple of encounters in campaign, and both resulted in the ship picking me up on radar from around 4km, giving me a chase, making a single albeit inaccurate pass (they couldn't get sonar contact), then going back to their usual duty.

What I DID like very much, is that they dropped closer and deeper than usual despite that - before, they would lose contact with you as soon as you went under the surface, dropping too shallow and often blowing themselves up ( ). Now, it seems that until you go silent, they have an idea how deep you would be. Which makes sense to me, because no real DD captain would be dumb enough to assume you only dove to Periscope Depth when he showed up

"uber" hydrophones are the way to go, I think

the DD's can only hear you on hydrophones whilst they are either stationary or moving very very slowly (max speed is half a knot) this is to balance out the ubered effect (which if not cut back by other factors is 100% uber all the time ) AND to create good dynamics ---DD's need to talk to each other in order to find you--one stays still whilst another will come over to investigate---making the best out of the co-operative AI routines--

you will find that if you persist in any attack agressively the DC drops begin to slowly increase in accuracy as more DD's begin to join in the attack i assume providing better contact on your position--this is fairly dynamic and dependant on how close to the merchants you are and how noisy you are---try to resist the temptation to "test" this in specific situations---looking for patterns that might need alteration ---again this sort of testing only provides red herrings in my experience easily misintepreted as concrete never changing behaviour-( i can't emphasise this enough --it just doesn't help)--play thru a normal campaign career---- forget about the mod and see what the over-all effect is--if the DD's are protecting the convoys effectively and the gameplay is good then forget about the minute details of the thing and look at the over-all "feel" and "playability" ---over time other modification will naturally suggest them selves---such as perhaps consideration regarding the radar---i too find the radar a b~tch late war ---and would like to calm it down ever so slightly-but i haven't done this as yet as i want to make sure that i'm not just suffering from "test-mono-mania" finding problems that actually are simply elements of the gameplay and really just inconvient when testing other things rather than a direct issue--

the question is--in normal gameplay would this actually be a genuine problem--or am i just pissed that it's making the tests bl**dy inconvienent?

[CCIP]

I agree about the testing to some degree - though some basic tests are always neccesary. Otherwise, hey - I spent two weeks in the summer constantly testing and tweaking damage and escort behaviour - and by the end of it I felt it was all perfecto. But then I started observing WaW campaigns, where most people use RUb careers, along with playing out my own career - and what I started seeing that, for all the set-up test results, the DD's became strangely incompetent and really became an ASW weapon that only really works when you make some total screw-up. :hmm:

Anyway, I think I definitely like your idea - though I wonder how often the DD's really go to a stop.

I've only dropped the sonar from 90 degrees off bearing to 70 degrees, just to prevent the super-lock of the late war (where a single circling DD can keep practically constant lock on you) - which, by the way, was discovered through campaign play and not any specific testing

I think we should calm down a bit with this sensor affair. Ever since Jungman first made the SonarDC mod early in the summer and exposed the detection problems that the game has, this has continued to be a sore spot in SHIII - mostly because it's not the sensors but the AI that are the real problem. I don't think we'll ever find a complete solution, but suppose we can always try to compensate :hmm:

[CB..]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I agree about the testing to some degree - though some basic tests are always neccesary. Otherwise, hey - I spent two weeks in the summer constantly testing and tweaking damage and escort behaviour - and by the end of it I felt it was all perfecto. But then I started observing WaW campaigns, where most people use RUb careers, along with playing out my own career - and what I started seeing that, for all the set-up test results, the DD's became strangely incompetent and really became an ASW weapon that only really works when you make some total screw-up. :hmm:

:

my point entirely it's only after you have stopped testing and started playing the game normally that you can tell if the mod you have made actually works---because you play the game differently when testing than under normal conditions---so the tests are allways out of context

you end up focussing on tiny single events such as that circling DD you mentioned and extrapolating an entire series of changes based on this single anomaly---why the heck shouldn't it circle your last known position--it's a DD that's it's job--


the point here is that any complete solution would be a complete waste of time---utterly predictable utterly boring utterly unrealistic--those were human beings on those DD's --sometimes wet -cold- fed up- scared --angy and all the other unscriptable emotional states--

no no ---i want the unpredictability--i want the anomalys---i don't want a complete soloution---it is a red herring--leave that stuff to the realism police--

my mod is finished i'll only alter it when i discover something interesting that can enhance the gameplay--or i find a definite and impassable problem with it as is--

i dont want to bully the AI into submission --

[HEMISENT]

[quote="CB
my point entirely it's only after you have stopped testing and started playing the game normally that you can tell if the mod you have made actually works---because you play the game differently when testing than under normal conditions---so the tests are allways out of context
[/quote]

CB, I couldn't agree more with this thought. As your aware I drove myself crazy over the behaviour of lone DD's working with RUB and your original settings. Once I got that settled down I'm now on the second mission of my test campaign. Overall the the gameplay is acceptable. My first mission was October 1943. I sunk under 10,000 tons and barely made it home with 16% hull integrity. The DD"s did what they were supposed to do, forced me into taking quick shots from a distance, kept me down and beat me up long enough for the convoy to get away and left a single escort to sit on me for awhile. Still fine tuning but slowly getting there.

[CB..]

yup it's the only sane way to try out things--the only way that works anyway!

i agree once you get into 1943 things start getting tough - the improved radar and the greater use of k-guns etc really starts to impose it self--every merchant sunk becomes a major achievment--and the DD's if they even get a sniff of you before you get into firing postion will make pretty dang sure you have to abandon the attack and try again--i have to admit i don't argue with them lol--if they detect me prior to the torp launch i get out of there and try again--makes those FAT torps available in the renown "shop" look less like fancy toys and more like life save-ing essentail bits of kit!

glad your getting some-where with the RUB adapation--

[CCIP]

I was very impressed just now CB, and I'm definitely coming around to your "uber hydrophone, quick lost contact time" approach.

Ran into a Clemson in stormy weather; and he managed to chase me around for 2 hours (!) dropping charges pretty close to me (but always a bit behind) - without ever pinging me!

Normally, he would've left me alone after maybe half an hour. But not this time

[CB..]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I was very impressed just now CB, and I'm definitely coming around to your "uber hydrophone, quick lost contact time" approach.

Ran into a Clemson in stormy weather; and he managed to chase me around for 2 hours (!) dropping charges pretty close to me (but always a bit behind) - without ever pinging me!

Normally, he would've left me alone after maybe half an hour. But not this time

ok nice one---yes the whole thing is fairly dynamic and you can not entirely predict what each individual DD is going to be like when you encounter it--next time you meet one it will most likely work out differently-(which may well be less impressive but's that part of the interest yes?)-the short lost contact time coupled with the ubered phones does seem to work to enable the AI to behave in a more dynamic fashion---allowing the DD's to decide for them selves on the fly what to do rather than being forced into a set pattern of behaviuor by a longer lost contact time--

as stock the AI just defaults to a set search pattern that goes on for a set period of time which is frankly --dull-- with this set up the AI makes this decision "on the fly" and the results are dynamic--a lot more interesting and unpredictable "cat and mouse" stuff going on---

[CCIP]

I'm thinking of dropping the min range for the hydrophone, actually. He dropped just a liiitle bit too far aft of me to be a real threat. I think if I reduce it, he should give me more of a run for my money

But we'll see. I can only imagine this vs. more than one DD. Now that would be something to see.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'm thinking of dropping the min range for the hydrophone, actually. He dropped just a liiitle bit too far aft of me to be a real threat. I think if I reduce it, he should give me more of a run for my money

But we'll see. I can only imagine this vs. more than one DD. Now that would be something to see.

well yes this mod is aimed at convoy escorts--thats the main hub of the gameplay--remember look at the big picture not individual encounters--

if all encounters with lone DD's were the same you'd have an easy time testing stuff--- but you'd allso be bored out of your mind--
so there's your basic contradiction in terms lol

same goes for convoy escorts---you wanna test or you wanna play?

[CCIP]

I think I'm falling into a trap of letting the escorts do what they're doing vs. trying to make them do what I want them to do

Don't worry, I'll get over it soon enough