Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The production capacities are not there, must be build first.

Years.

And think of the many things and infrastructure and capabilities of the US that must be replaced. We must get rid of all that US-made sh!t, it now is a threat that is directed against us.

I fear the overwhelming majority of people and decision makers in Europe have not yet fully understood that and think they can still depend on Patriots and US intel and US aircraft and so forth.

No. We can not.

Not to mention DNS servers. Software. Internet. Economic dependencies on the giants form the US.

What we belied was safe since WW" - now reveals itself to have been a huge monumental trap. We will need decades to get out of it. For the time being we cannot do much more than to stop buying US-made weapons and IT.

We are economcially strong enough and technologically competent enough to make all that ourselves, but we must build the means to do so first, and to secure the supply lines for the needed global ressources. Of course we must also stop sharing that with the US.

We must also ready ourselves for the US no longer sharing terror warnings with us, like they did in all the past decades as an unspoken background policy even if the climate between Europe and the US was not good. When terror plots became known to the US that would lead to mass killings in Europe, the US intel shared intel discreetely with europe, no matter what, especially with the impotent Germans (and I am very thankful for that, believe me). I expect this to end with snakes in the pit like there now are. There is nothing noble in the Trumpists.

The more this all goes on, the more I realise I start to think of the US as an enemy, Sorry, but thats how it is, I am only pulling consequences. Tnhats wgho I tick if you push me too far, all of a sudden I flip the switches and plot a completely new course, a more aggressive one. We cannot trust the US anymore. And no, I do not think the US would help anymore in the defence of Europe if Russia attacks.

I just take the king cobra by its words. Wo are you - whoever feels adressed - to tell me he does not mean it?

Let me see if I got this straight, this is not an "American" war (without a mineral deal at the least, we have no dog in this fight), Europe has the most to gain by continued fighting. Europe cannot supply Ukraine with the needed material to continue the "war", but you're mad at the U.S. for not continuing to fund the war until you get up to speed on your ability to supply it yourselves?

What drugs are you guys on?

[Dargo]

In the summer of 416 BC, Athens decided to annex the puny island of Melos, which had never done anything wrong to the Athenians and had until then been neutral in the conflict between Athens and Sparta. Athens had respected their neutrality until then, but considered the time had come when Athenian tolerance with regard to Melos could be seen as a sign of weakness. The Athenians sent an impressive military force to Melos, after which they opened negotiations for a peace agreement, which as far as they were concerned amounted to the immediate unconditional surrender of the Melians. The Melians said such an agreement would be unjust. ‘Justice and injustice are irrelevant concepts in this context,’ the Athenians replied. ‘Justice may apply among equals. In the present situation, a different truth applies, and that is that those who are strong do what they want, while those who are weak endure what they must endure. It is necessary for the preservation of our empire that our strength is feared in the islands and that in the islands, where people have good reasons to oppose us, there is no talk of the fate of one island that might justify hopes of independence.’

‘If there are apparently so many good reasons in the other islands to oppose your empire, it would show unacceptable cowardice if we were not prepared to do everything possible to prevent us from being incorporated into your empire,’ the Melians said. ‘It would be foolishness if you were not prepared to see that there is no way to prevent it,’ the Athenians said. ‘The dilemma facing you is not the choice between cowardice or bravery, but the choice between self-preservation and total destruction.’ When the Melians said they trusted the gods, the Athenians replied, ‘The right of the strongest is a natural law that even the gods obey. We did not invent this law. It existed long before we appeared on the scene, and it will still exist long after we are gone. We have found this law in divine and human nature and are making temporary use of it, that is all.’ The Melians refused to come to an agreement. After a brief siege, their state was destroyed by the Athenians in January of the year 415 BC. All the male inhabitants of the island were put to death, and the women and children were sold as slaves.

The main difference between these negotiations of Athens with Melos, as minuted by Thucydides, and the disconcerting meeting of President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine with President Donald Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance of the United States on Friday 28 February 2025 in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington was stylistic. Trump and Vance could not match the eloquence of the Athens negotiators. In their efforts to humiliate Zelenskyy in front of the television cameras, they barely let him speak, while at least the Athenians still exercised the decency to let the Melians speak during their intimidation. All other differences between the two situations, separated by almost two and a half millennia in time, pale in comparison to the corresponding principle underlying both. Unlike Athens, America is not the aggressor, agreed, but the surrender that America demands of Ukraine is motivated by American greed regarding Ukrainian mineral resources worthy of an aggressor. The main and most shocking agreement is that the principle of justice is declared irrelevant. ‘We should not confuse the victim and the aggressor in this terrible war,’ the incoming German Chancellor Friedrich Merz rightly said. In Trump's world, which is the new American reality, only the law of the jungle applies. ‘You don't have the cards,’ Trump said. Those who are strong do what they want, while those who are weak endure what they have to endure.

The reason Trump hates Europe is that he fears it. All the individual countries of Europe each pose no threat to America, but in his awe of the law of the jungle, he sees a united Europe as a formidable adversary. That is why he consistently refuses to speak to Union representatives. He hopes to pit the individual countries of Europe against each other with bilateral agreements. We could also phrase the challenge we face in these terms: let it then be our mission to become who he fears us to be. It is a matter of self-confidence and unity, and unfortunately these are not Europe's greatest talents. But we have no choice Project 2025 in action, but we will survive.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Let me see if I got this straight, this is not an "American" war (without a mineral deal at the least, we have no dog in this fight), Europe has the most to gain by continued fighting. Europe cannot supply Ukraine with the needed material to continue the "war", but you're mad at the U.S. for not continuing to fund the war until you get up to speed on your ability to supply it yourselves?

What drugs are you guys on?

Ukraine and Europe will never accept your terms, but you're enjoying this so much your lot are so on a high oh BOI you be disappointed in the end.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Let me see if I got this straight, this is not an "American" war (without a mineral deal at the least, we have no dog in this fight), Europe has the most to gain by continued fighting. Europe cannot supply Ukraine with the needed material to continue the "war", but you're mad at the U.S. for not continuing to fund the war until you get up to speed on your ability to supply it yourselves?

No. I am mad over the betrayal of Ukraine - while you could have demanded Europe to pay for your weapons you deliver them. WE SIMPLY HAVE NONE AT STOCK. Cant produce them on the fly. You have.

Instead you chosed to walk about their dead corpses, took side with Putler, cooperate with him in securing his war goals, and plan to plunder the dead corpus as much as possible.

Your great leader mocks the victim, tells lies about it, glorifies the attacker, ridicules anbd offends his victim, and now holds its arms on its back so that Russia can stab it to death easier.

You can weasel and you can turnign words and you can play the innocent. But you ended up on the wrong side of history here, you ended up in the company of those who play in team Evil. You do not take a neutral stand, you actively have choosen, you have changed sides. You actively support Russia and assist it in reaching all its war objectives. Because you hope to feast on the dead cadaver once Ukraine is done and over.

Weasel on if you think you must. But I call it a policy of infamy and betrayal that will stick to America's reputation forever. You do not stay out - YOU ACTIVELY HAVE CHOOSEN TO SIDE WITH RUSSIA AND ITS WAR OBJECTIVES. You help realising them, you prevent resistence to them, you prevrent self-defence to them. Ukrainians pay with their lives for this your decision, America. Every night, because their air defences are crumbling, thanks to you. And your great leader even has the chruzpe to clal that "peace". No he is not about peace, He is about greed, he is about plundering. Nothing else but just this.

Your great leader is a personality-disordered murderous insane madman. A clinically ill man, a psychopath. No genius at all! A psychopath. You are under a spell, you are blinded, your inner trust is misled, your reason is corrupted, and your good will is being abused. You walk into the same trap and on the same paths into doom like the Germans once did. The psychological mechanisms of projecting the leader's power over the many - ARE THE SAME. The mechanisnms of power always are the same set of things.

So stop playing the innocent reasonable one. Your choice is neither innocent, nor reasonable. You side with your old enemy, America. You side with Russia, you assist it. You run Russian policy goals. Shame on you, stupid America. Shame on you. Your fathers and grandfathers who fought in WW2 are turning in their graves over what you do in the present.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

No. I am mad over the betrayal of Ukraine - while you could have demanded Europe to pay for your weapons you deliver them. WE SIMPLY HAVE NONE AT STOCK. Cant produce them on the fly. You have.

Instead you chosed to walk about their dead corpses, took side with Putler, cooperate with him in securing his war goals, and plan to plunder the dead corpus as much as possible.

Your great leader mocks the victim, tells lies about it, glorifies the attacker, ridicules anbd offends his victim, and now holds its arms on its back so that Russia can stab it to death easier.

You can weasel and you can turnign words and you can play the innocent. But you ended up on the wrong side of history here, you ended up in the company of those who play in team Evil. You do not take a neutral stand, you actively have choosen, you have changed sides. You actively support Russia and assist it in reaching all its war objectives. Because you hope to feast on the dead cadaver once Ukraine is done and over.

Weasel on if you think you must. But I call it a policy of infamy and betrayal that will stick to America's reputation forever. You do not stay out - YOU ACTIVELY HAVE CHOOSEN TO SIDE WITH RUSSIA AND ITS WAR OBJECTIVES. You help realising them, you prevent resistence to them, you prevrent self-defence to them. Ukrainians pay with their lives for this your decision, America. Every night, because their air defences are crumbling, thanks to you. And your great leader even has the chruzpe to clal that "peace". No he is not about peace, He is about greed, he is about plundering. Nothing else but just this.

Your great leader is a personality-disordered murderous insane madman. A clinically ill man, a psyhcipath. No genius! A psychopath. You are under a spell, you are blinded, your inner trust is misled, your reason is corrupted, and your good will is being abused. You walk into the same trap and on the same paths into doom like the Germans once did. The psychological mechanisms of projecting the leader's power over the many - ARE THE SAME. The mechanisnms of power always are the same set of things.

So stop playing the innocent reasonable one. Your choice is neither innocent, nor reasonable. You side with your old enemy, America. You side with Russia, you assist it. You run Russian policy goals. Shame on you, stupid America. Shame on you. Your fathers and grandfathers who fought in WW2 are turning in their graves over what you do in the present.

HEAR F'ing HEAR HEAR!

[Dargo]

Russia, one of the largest military powers in history, with active support from Iran and North Korea and the benevolent neutrality of China, has been unable to erase Ukraine from the world map for 12 years and now requires US assistance to somehow choke it to death after three years of a failed full-scale war.​ Zbigniew Brzezinski would have gone mad seeing this. Moscow’s facade crumbles when faced with the resilience of Ukraine. US actions now seem to facilitate Russia's strategic aim of turning Ukraine into Belarus. The narrative that Russia is strong is a fallacy, a united Europe's economic power, combined with Ukrainian spirit, can collapse Russia's ability to fight. Yes I do not want a peace I want an Ukraine victory!

[Jimbuna]

No matter how much I disagree with Ukraine’s policy, I will never turn off Starlink, - Musk

Elon Musk, the American billionaire and head of the US Government's Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), has assured that he will never disconnect Starlink terminals in Ukraine.

He wrote about this in his account X, Censor.NET reports.

"To be very clear, regardless of how much I disagree with Ukraine's politics, Starlink will never turn off its terminals. I am simply stating that without Starlink, Ukrainian communication lines would collapse, as the Russians can jam all other communications," Musk wrote.

According to him, he would never do that and would not use such a solution as a "bargaining chip".

As a reminder, Elon Musk, an American billionaire and head of the US Government's Department of Government Effectiveness (DOGE), is convinced that Starlink is key for the Ukrainian Defence Forces, as without it the front line would collapse. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3540178

Call me a cynic but I'm not convinced he is telling the truth

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Ukraine and Europe will never accept your terms, but you're enjoying this so much your lot are so on a high oh BOI you be disappointed in the end.

Not really, We in the U.S. have other issues to deal with closer to home. If you go back 2 years to the beginning of this thread you'll see I posted the same thing back then as I'm doing today, It's NOT our fight.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Call me a cynic but I'm not convinced he is telling the truth

He showed the torture instruments so that the sight would have its effect. That's what they did in the Middle Ages too. Most offenders confessed at the sight of them, without the torture having to be carried out.

He said exactly the opposite of what the words seem to express literally. How can anyone - not you, Jim, but some others - fall for that...?


BTW, he has already switched off Starlink before, to prevent a huge Ukrainian attack on the Russian fleet.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Call me a cynic but I'm not convinced he is telling the truth

Around April it won't matter any more (The Ukraine army switch satellite provider for several European providers on the moment it takes a month) let them doit Musk can shut down what he wants we pull out of his companies the largest investors pulling out of the US its market lost in 6 weeks +1 trillion it goes into a depression this year because of his wannabe "Royal" orange dumbass.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Not really, We in the U.S. have other issues to deal with closer to home. If you go back 2 years to the beginning of this thread you'll see I posted the same thing back then as I'm doing today, It's NOT our fight.

I respect this, however then you should have stayed out of it from the start-2014 'cause by sending instructors, weapons and ammo you have taken side in this conflict. Now it looks like you have changed side.

Markus

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Yes I do not want a peace I want an Ukraine victory!

I pray it does happen, despite the problem with different thing in the war, such as low morale after USA have stopped deliver weapon, ammo and now intel.

Markus

[Dargo]

Maybe I have to explain myself, I do not want an "Orange" peace but Yellow-Blue peace.

[mapuc]

As I understand it, the European pay USA for the weapons and ammo they send to Ukraine.

What I also understand is, that the military complex in USA, is earning trillion of dollars.

By stopping delivering they will lose these trillions of dollars.

If this is true then I expect some very angry leaders.

Markus

[Dargo]

This will have effect for future defence orders, why buy from a "friend" that is a turncoat. It is already happening we're looking to other trade partners, solutions, to do business with others than the US.

Wealthy Chinese investors are quietly funnelling tens of millions of dollars into private companies controlled by Elon Musk using an arrangement that shields their identities from public view, according to asset managers and investors involved in the transactions. The investments are being placed through opaque structures known as special-purpose vehicles, which have the benefit of concealing the investors’ identities, to avoid the ire of US authorities and companies wary of Chinese capital during a nadir in relations between the two countries. Asset managers behind the deals have told investors that the entities are specifically designed to avoid disclosure. On a recent Wednesday afternoon, hundreds of Chinese investors tuned in to a webinar to hear a representative from Homaer Financial, an asset manager in eastern China, pitch an opportunity to invest in SpaceX for as little as $200,000 per person. https://archive.ph/85Hul#selection-2449.0-2449.246 Make America Chinese Again?