LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod - Page 45

Deathblow · 04-27-06, 02:54 AM

So from what I understand about Aegis, is that in RL it coordinate missile volleys amongst all ships in the link. But.... and this is just from the scenario that I've been testing, looks like in the game currently is that each Aegis ship is really shooting one SM-2 independently to intercept each incoming missile. Put 2 or 3 Aegis ships together and they will increase, or even top off the number of SM-2s per attacking missile, ewhich increase the success rates... so coincidentially they are accidently mimicking real Aegis strategy.

But put a ship alone, where it should be launching 2-3 SM-2 per attacking missile (because it no longer has backup from other Aegis), its still using only 1 missile instead. Using 2 ships together this behavior isn't a problem, but a solo ship isn't compensating.

All that being said, trying to program a behavior that both responds appropriately to solo defense as well as can coordinate amonst a group effort would be..... an absolute nightmare and probably not worth it.

Oh well

db

ps) want me to send you the mission setup I've been using to test the behavior?

Mau · 04-27-06, 04:11 AM

I thought the Mod was better now in that regards.
I thought the Aegis were more agressive now
Luftwolf?

Deathblow · 04-27-06, 06:35 AM

Oh, there's no doubt that its much much much better, just looking for ways to make it even better.

LuftWolf · 04-28-06, 12:49 AM

Deathblow, actually you are wrong... missiles are shared across the link and the sim intelligently hands off targets to individual ships, reserving some ships for backup salvos on vampires missed by the first salvo of the first ship.

Why do you always assume something is wrong when you haven't done the legwork?

Trust me, when you take the mind to fix things, there is no joy in finding new things that need to be fixed.

***It's patently not possible to reference the state of one object in the sim using doctrines unless that object is a target***

So coordinating between ships is not a doctrine/moddable problem.

LuftWolf · 04-29-06, 01:04 AM

Ok, I have fixed the salvo problem with the CIWSattack doctrine, thanks for pointing this out DB, I have looked at this countless times and not noticed a problem.

Deathblow · 05-08-06, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Ok, I have fixed the salvo problem with the CIWSattack doctrine, thanks for pointing this out DB, I have looked at this countless times and not noticed a problem.

Glad i could help. I tend to not mention a behavior until after I've witnessed it, setup test scenarios to test it, and then try to figure out some initial doctrine/database fixes initially (for my own personal tweaks). If the problem doesn't lend itself to any discernable cause or initial solutions then I usually drop a post or two with observations, looking for ideas.

Not that the Aegis modeling wasn't already adequate, the SM2 weapon effectiveness could always be tweaked as a bottom line, just thought that since we were trying to refine AI behavior and decision making it was worth mentioning. I got kindof fixated on surface platform behavior after trying to create a few CVBG and joint task for scenarios where the AI wasn't really behaving ideally.

Deathblow · 05-09-06, 04:28 PM

Here's a question. Anyone know what "Affected by ground noise" in the DBEditor Sensor Window means? Ground noise?

I doubt that DW is simulatedly seismic events!

LuftWolf · 05-09-06, 04:49 PM

I'm pretty sure that refers to sea state.

Deathblow · 05-09-06, 05:14 PM

Interesting... :hmm: ... there's already a "affected by sea state" option on the sensor dialog, so "affected by ground noise" would represent another, different, aspect of sea states...... I wonder...

... what if it refers to how close a sensor is to the bottom of the ocean... like reverberation effects or ground scatter of sound and the like... if it is, it may represent a way to model the in the increased diffulculty of the littoral sonar envrionment...

... I've been reading sonar in littoral waters can be very different and even weapons like the Mk48 have a terrible times in littoral environments because the sonar picture is more confusing, with more ground scattering, bottom bounce, etc than sensors can compensate for...

... but those are just wild guessing... it might be worthwhile to setup some test scenarios to see how "ground state" effects sensor performance... could be interesting.

LuftWolf · 05-09-06, 05:22 PM

I've also learned that a lot of the database is simply redunant and actual has no effect on anything in the sim.

I'm beginning to suspect that the ECM Jammer option does nothing in the sim for example. However, there is a bitcall option in the doctrines to test for the ECM Jammer, so it could be modelled in the doctrines, and this is what I am planning to do, we'll have to see if it works.

Amizaur · 05-09-06, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Deathblow, actually you are wrong... missiles are shared across the link and the sim intelligently hands off targets to individual ships, reserving some ships for backup salvos on vampires missed by the first salvo of the first ship.

Hmm I never observed that... are you sure ? I looked in here accidently and above surprised me. Are we talking about DW here ? I was sure that in DW ship missile defense is controlled by doctrines and there is no way to coordinate launches from different ships, so there is no way that game can globally coordinate ship missile defence (no if it's realised by doctrines - and it is). Every ship defends himself as Deathblow wrote, it was my impression. How did you observed what you wrote - the handing off targets to individual ships ?

P.S. Hmm, IIRC, affected by ground noise was flag for radar sensors... and meaned that low flying targets are harder to detect. for sonars there was affected by sea state. but I can be wrong and can't check this now...
don't think it's about sea bottom background, long ago I tried to enable it for active sonars and there was no difference with detecting targets laying on the bottom. It's a flag for radars most probably... and it's enabled for search radars.

P.S.2. Luftwolf, have you figured maybe what CM type sensors are for ?? They seems to be not used by anything, especially by CM objects... ? Or maybe they are, just it's not show up in Ludger's editor...?

Molon Labe · 05-09-06, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

Here's a question. Anyone know what "Affected by ground noise" in the DBEditor Sensor Window means? Ground noise?

I doubt that DW is simulatedly seismic events!

Actually, the DW software was originally written to record seismic events. When it gets confused, it sorta "runs home to momma."

LuftWolf · 05-09-06, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amizaur

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Deathblow, actually you are wrong... missiles are shared across the link and the sim intelligently hands off targets to individual ships, reserving some ships for backup salvos on vampires missed by the first salvo of the first ship.

Hmm I never observed that... are you sure ? I looked in here accidently and above surprised me. Are we talking about DW here ? I was sure that in DW ship missile defense is controlled by doctrines and there is no way to coordinate launches from different ships, so there is no way that game can globally coordinate ship missile defence (no if it's realised by doctrines - and it is). Every ship defends himself as Deathblow wrote, it was my impression. How did you observed what you wrote - the handing off targets to individual ships ?

The sim limits the total number of weapons in the air at any given time from one side against a single platform/weapon. I believe the total number of weapons is four, so a single missile will never have more than four missiles trying to intercept it at any given point, even if doctrines order two ships to fire four missiles each. This is why SSGN's have to be set on different sides in order to attack surface ships in groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amizaur

P.S.2. Luftwolf, have you figured maybe what CM type sensors are for ?? They seems to be not used by anything, especially by CM objects... ? Or maybe they are, just it's not show up in Ludger's editor...?

It seems likely that these are holdovers from FC or SC. There are a few other clear examples, but I can't remember them at the moment.

Deathblow · 05-09-06, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

The sim limits the total number of weapons in the air at any given time from one side against a single platform/weapon. I believe the total number of weapons is four, so a single missile will never have more than four missiles trying to intercept it at any given point, even if doctrines order two ships to fire four missiles each. This is why SSGN's have to be set on different sides in order to attack surface ships in groups.

I'm not 100% sure about that as well. I've found that if you change the "AttackBest" in the CIWSATTACK doctrine to "FIREBEST" then you will see a ridiculous number of missiles go airborne at one target, with the only limit the "max number of rounds guideable" in the launcher dialog. Its a pretty funny firework display with 6-8 missiles being fired at each and every ASM.

Maybe there is some other effect determining missile limits... I know that this came up in the SSGN design.... if 5 SSGN were given attack orders did only 4 shoot?... it might have something to do with the AttackBest logic with isn't amenable to modding atm.

Deathblow · 05-09-06, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

Here's a question. Anyone know what "Affected by ground noise" in the DBEditor Sensor Window means? Ground noise?

I doubt that DW is simulatedly seismic events!

Actually, the DW software was originally written to record seismic events. When it gets confused, it sorta "runs home to momma."

hehe classic. Set myself up for that one

04-28-06, 12:49 AM	#664
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Deathblow, actually you are wrong... missiles are shared across the link and the sim intelligently hands off targets to individual ships, reserving some ships for backup salvos on vampires missed by the first salvo of the first ship. Why do you always assume something is wrong when you haven't done the legwork? Trust me, when you take the mind to fix things, there is no joy in finding new things that need to be fixed. *It's patently not possible to reference the state of one object in the sim using doctrines unless that object is a target* So coordinating between ships is not a doctrine/moddable problem. __________________ LW

04-29-06, 01:04 AM	#665
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Ok, I have fixed the salvo problem with the CIWSattack doctrine, thanks for pointing this out DB, I have looked at this countless times and not noticed a problem. __________________ LW

05-09-06, 04:49 PM	#668
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I'm pretty sure that refers to sea state. __________________ LW

05-09-06, 05:22 PM	#670
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I've also learned that a lot of the database is simply redunant and actual has no effect on anything in the sim. I'm beginning to suspect that the ECM Jammer option does nothing in the sim for example. However, there is a bitcall option in the doctrines to test for the ECM Jammer, so it could be modelled in the doctrines, and this is what I am planning to do, we'll have to see if it works. __________________ LW

04-27-06, 02:54 AM	#661
Deathblow Captain Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 518 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	So from what I understand about Aegis, is that in RL it coordinate missile volleys amongst all ships in the link. But.... and this is just from the scenario that I've been testing, looks like in the game currently is that each Aegis ship is really shooting one SM-2 independently to intercept each incoming missile. Put 2 or 3 Aegis ships together and they will increase, or even top off the number of SM-2s per attacking missile, ewhich increase the success rates... so coincidentially they are accidently mimicking real Aegis strategy. But put a ship alone, where it should be launching 2-3 SM-2 per attacking missile (because it no longer has backup from other Aegis), its still using only 1 missile instead. Using 2 ships together this behavior isn't a problem, but a solo ship isn't compensating. All that being said, trying to program a behavior that both responds appropriately to solo defense as well as can coordinate amonst a group effort would be..... an absolute nightmare and probably not worth it. Oh well db ps) want me to send you the mission setup I've been using to test the behavior?

04-27-06, 04:11 AM	#662
Mau Sonar Guy Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 382 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I thought the Mod was better now in that regards. I thought the Aegis were more agressive now Luftwolf?

04-27-06, 06:35 AM	#663
Deathblow Captain Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 518 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Oh, there's no doubt that its much much much better, just looking for ways to make it even better.

05-09-06, 04:28 PM	#667
Deathblow Captain Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 518 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Here's a question. Anyone know what "Affected by ground noise" in the DBEditor Sensor Window means? Ground noise? I doubt that DW is simulatedly seismic events!

05-09-06, 05:14 PM	#669
Deathblow Captain Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 518 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Interesting... :hmm: ... there's already a "affected by sea state" option on the sensor dialog, so "affected by ground noise" would represent another, different, aspect of sea states...... I wonder... ... what if it refers to how close a sensor is to the bottom of the ocean... like reverberation effects or ground scatter of sound and the like... if it is, it may represent a way to model the in the increased diffulculty of the littoral sonar envrionment... ... I've been reading sonar in littoral waters can be very different and even weapons like the Mk48 have a terrible times in littoral environments because the sonar picture is more confusing, with more ground scattering, bottom bounce, etc than sensors can compensate for... ... but those are just wild guessing... it might be worthwhile to setup some test scenarios to see how "ground state" effects sensor performance... could be interesting.