[REL] Natural Sinking Mechanics

[DrBeast]

Originally Posted by castorp345

out of curiosity: was there some reason why the link was pulled in the first place? were/are there any compatibility concerns with 4.0? i haven't experienced anything unusual yet, but then again i've pretty much just been mucking about in my sugar boat campaign...

Dunno about compatibility issues, but the files being pulled is a generic Filefront caveat. You'll have to reupload every once in a while.

[DrBeast]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

But, which one covers the Mark 14?

Sorry mate, just noticed this. If you compare the parent IDs in the .sim and .zon files, you'll figure out which one is which, and in the .sim file the type is actually displayed. From what I've gleaned, the order in .zon is: Mk27, Mk10, Mk18, Mk16, Mk23, Mk14. Damn, that's quite mixed up!

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by castorp345

out of curiosity: was there some reason why the link was pulled in the first place? were/are there any compatibility concerns with 4.0? i haven't experienced anything unusual yet, but then again i've pretty much just been mucking about in my sugar boat campaign...

yes. The old torpedo mod is not compatible with nsm 4. It will run but it may cause unwanted keel damage.

[Galanti]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

yes. The old torpedo mod is not compatible with nsm 4. It will run but it may cause unwanted keel damage.

How so, doesn't it just change reliability and set the various pistol paramaters?

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by Galanti

How so, doesn't it just change reliability and set the various pistol paramaters?

mh actualy yes i misunderstood. Torpedoes_US.sim which defines reliability if fully compatible. Torpedoes_US.zon is different because the new keel damage required a smaller explosion radius. Using old torpedoes_us.zon with larger damage radius may damage the keel zone on hull impact.

[billko]

Originally Posted by DrBeast

@Doolittle: For starters, there's more to ROW Effects than a modified zones.cfg file. What you could do is enable ROW Effects, then NSM. This will retain some ROW effects (generic modifications to explosions, smoke, etc), but you'll have the effects pertaining to the ships of the NSM mod. These are fewer than what ROW offers. My advice is, try it out as-is first (that is, enable ROW Effects first, then NSM4). What I'm trying to accomplish is combine ALL the effects of ROW with the sinking mechanism of NSM. Although I must say that if I get any satisfactory results, I'll ship the file over to billko for final evaluation and release; he offered to do it first, after all.

DrBeast:

Actually, you are doing everyone here a favor. My new job has taken a lot more of my time than I thought it would. I hardly have time to even look at my computer, let alone use it. (For example, right now I have NOTHING listed on my "recently used" application list!)

Since you've started the process, why not finish it? And please take all the credit for it - you don't need to send it to me for approval!

Bill

[DrBeast]

Originally Posted by billko

DrBeast:

Actually, you are doing everyone here a favor. My new job has taken a lot more of my time than I thought it would. I hardly have time to even look at my computer, let alone use it. (For example, right now I have NOTHING listed on my "recently used" application list!)

Since you've started the process, why not finish it? And please take all the credit for it - you don't need to send it to me for approval!

Bill

Roger that. I'm still waiting for Werner to comment on a post I made a while back (it's been moved to the previous page). Damn thing is still eluding me...kept me up till 4:00! I'm at work bleary-eyed, chugging my huge mug of coffee, and not even Pantera on (almost) full blast can wake me up!

ETA: This is what I need help with

[DrBeast]

A small update/progress report:
I stripped the merged file of any ROW cargo types and copied over only the effect types. I still got blasted out of the water when too close to the exploding ship, when I noticed this little part:

;*******************************************************
;NEW SMALL MERCHANT
;*******************************************************
[NSKeel]
Category=Keel
Multiplier=10.0
Flotability=10.0
HitPoints=150
Destructible=No
Armor Level=20
Critic Flotation=0.5
Critical=Yes
Critical Chance=1.0 
FloodingTime=200
CargoType=Ammo <---------

I noticed that only this Keel category was "loaded" with Ammo, all the others had CargoType=None, so I changed it to None as well...
Good news: my ship no longer got blown to pieces
Bad news: keel explosion effect was gone. No breaking up in half, nothing! I shot a merchant packed with ammo at 400 meters, the ship became a crescendo of fireworks, but the hull was intact, apart from the hole my torpedo had punched!

*le sigh*

Back to the drawing board...

[Galanti]

Originally Posted by DrBeast

A small update/progress report:
I stripped the merged file of any ROW cargo types and copied over only the effect types. I still got blasted out of the water when too close to the exploding ship, when I noticed this little part:

;*******************************************************
;NEW SMALL MERCHANT
;*******************************************************
[NSKeel]
Category=Keel
Multiplier=10.0
Flotability=10.0
HitPoints=150
Destructible=No
Armor Level=20
Critic Flotation=0.5
Critical=Yes
Critical Chance=1.0 
FloodingTime=200
CargoType=Ammo <---------

I noticed that only this Keel category was "loaded" with Ammo, all the others had CargoType=None, so I changed it to None as well...
Good news: my ship no longer got blown to pieces
Bad news: keel explosion effect was gone. No breaking up in half, nothing! I shot a merchant packed with ammo at 400 meters, the ship became a crescendo of fireworks, but the hull was intact, apart from the hole my torpedo had punched!

*le sigh*

Back to the drawing board...

Hmmm, that exploding keel business could be the reason I sank two merchies with one shot the other night. I'll try changing it too.

[Wilcke]

So your conclusion= that ammo is what is exploding in the new keel compartment that Werner created.

Torpedo reliability, is everyone happy with this? I think I am going to pull the Torpedoes_US.sim file from NSM and allow TM's to set the reliablity...but then what am I messing up in NSM...back to testing tonight!

Oh, I never asked, will there be any difference in this from Single Mission testing to a career....what is the interaction if any?

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by DrBeast

A small update/progress report:
I stripped the merged file of any ROW cargo types and copied over only the effect types. I still got blasted out of the water when too close to the exploding ship, when I noticed this little part:

;*******************************************************
;NEW SMALL MERCHANT
;*******************************************************
[NSKeel]
Category=Keel
Multiplier=10.0
Flotability=10.0
HitPoints=150
Destructible=No
Armor Level=20
Critic Flotation=0.5
Critical=Yes
Critical Chance=1.0 
FloodingTime=200
CargoType=Ammo <---------

I noticed that only this Keel category was "loaded" with Ammo, all the others had CargoType=None, so I changed it to None as well...
Good news: my ship no longer got blown to pieces
Bad news: keel explosion effect was gone. No breaking up in half, nothing! I shot a merchant packed with ammo at 400 meters, the ship became a crescendo of fireworks, but the hull was intact, apart from the hole my torpedo had punched!

*le sigh*

Back to the drawing board...

This is not an error. NSKeel CargoType must be set on Ammo.

Ill try to explain the secret behind the keel damage.

There is only one way to break the ship in two. There must be a zone filled with fuel or ammo, it must be big enough and it must be connected with compartments that go through the breaking point (which is hardcoded).

this is how i made the keel damage.

NSKeel zone is no longer Keel for small merchants. It is used for all ships and it is now 15 feet underneath of every ship. It can only be hit when the torpedo explodes 10-15 feet under the ship. It cannot be hit when the torpedo hits the hull. There is also a link zone which connects the NSKeel and the breaking point which is called NSLice.

So Basicly NSKeel is no longer a keel, it is a bomb underneath of every ship and it must be filled with ammo otherwise keel damage wont work...

Now about cargo types. There are 4 different possibilies. None, Fuel, Ammo and Custom. Default is Custom. Custom means it can be Tanks, Trucks, Crates whatever is set in mission editor as inside cargo... Ammo and None is force set the according cargo type regardles of inside cargo set in mission editor.

A custom cargo zone can be filled with fuel and ammo in mission editor. Meaning that every custom zone in that ship will become a bomb. A ship loaded with ammo will explode on hull impact and break in two because every zone is explosive and will touch the breaking point. Result: Ships that are loaded with ammo or fuel will always break - even on hull impact.

Ships that carry crates or anything not explosive as their custom cargo. Will never break on hull impact because the torpedo explosion range cannot reach the explosive Keel zone which is 15 feet below registered draft.

Now why it could happen anyway:

1. either you have been shooting at ships loaded with explosive. those will always break on hull impact.

2. you may have been shooting at unsupported ships (RFB?) they use the NSKeel
zone in another way.

3. You have a conflict with another mod that touches the torpedo files. check torpedoes_US.zon - AmmoDamageInfo 6, Properties 7,

MinRadius = 2
MaxRadius= 2,5

4. You have a conflict with another mod that touches ship.zon files and uses NSKeel zone in another way.

hope that helps.

[Galanti]

Thanks for the explanation Wernersobe! But what about contact shots that run too deep and hit this keel zone?

All my ships so far were sunk from one convoy,( Jan '42 in the Macassar strights, RSRD ) so it's certainly possible they were all carrying ammo. I'll run some tests tonight on ships I know have no cargo using contact pistols.

But if I find I'm still blowing up ships and surrounding ships with one fish then I think I'm going to set the keel cargo to none after all. My reason being is that everything I've read indicates the magnetic exploders rarely, if ever, functioned, in the PTO. I'm quite content to sink ships by punching big holes in them with contact fuzing, and if I lose the ability to break them in half with one hit, oh well.

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by Galanti

Thanks for the explanation Wernersobe! But what about contact shots that run too deep and hit this keel zone?

All my ships so far were sunk from one convoy,( Jan '42 in the Macassar strights, RSRD ) so it's certainly possible they were all carrying ammo. I'll run some tests tonight on ships I know have no cargo using contact pistols.

But if I find I'm still blowing up ships and surrounding ships with one fish then I think I'm going to set the keel cargo to none after all. My reason being is that everything I've read indicates the magnetic exploders rarely, if ever, functioned, in the PTO. I'm quite content to sink ships by punching big holes in them with contact fuzing, and if I lose the ability to break them in half with one hit, oh well.

Well if they run too deep they will not explode. The ammo zone is not "inside" the ship its outside and its a "ghostzone" it will not trigger a contact detonator. The ammo zone starts 15 feet below the "real" 3dModel and extends to about 30 feet.

Anyway. Let me know the results of your tests. Seems like its only you who have that problem. When running your tests, please deactivate duds (this will also make sure torpedoes run at correct depth) and if it happens again send me the mission where it happens so i can check if it is realy a local problem or a bug.

[Wilcke]

Werner,

1. More questions, should we be seeing "deep runners" with the current Torpedoes_US.sim? Currently I am shooting 100%; no deep runners.

2. If I pull the file out of NSM 4.0 and just let TM 1.7.6 Torpedoes_US.sim do its thing will I break NSM 4.0.

Other than the above observation, I really like NSM 4.0.

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by Wilcke

Werner,

1. More questions, should we be seeing "deep runners" with the current Torpedoes_US.sim? Currently I am shooting 100%; no deep runners.

2. If I pull the file out of NSM 4.0 and just let TM 1.7.6 Torpedoes_US.sim do its thing will I break NSM 4.0.

Other than the above observation, I really like NSM 4.0.

1. Yes there are plenty of deep runners. Just set the depth to 5 and fire all 6 tubes in a short time. Then use external camera to see the effect. But im thinking of increasing the failure range. It is now 1,5-3,5 meters at 70% chance.

2. no, the sim file may be changed, NSM damage system will not suffer. Sim file describes only reliability but anyway nsm4 sim file is less reliable then tm one.