US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[vienna]

There may be a good bit of new data arriving tomorrow (Dec 4) when the SC is scheduled to make a court filing regarding Flynn and the value of the information and cooperation Flynn's been giving the SC's team. Should be interesting...

Those who are wishfully thinking Trump and his cronies are out of the woods (a fantasy, you might call it) have overloaded the fact the SCO has not even made public the bulk of the evidence they have accumulated. While the court filings to date have been highly detailed, more than most such filings, there is a great deal more to be revealed. It almost seems as if SCO's team is luring the subjects of the investigation, including Trump, into making public statements the SCO knows to be false; its sort allowing the Trump team to weave the rope by which they will be hung. Early on in the investigation, a couple of persons from the Trump side were asked by reporters what the interview process was like with the SCO; they both expressed surprise with one stating about the SCO Team, "They know everything." This is something the Trumpettes, and, I think, Trump and his minions seem to forget: the SCO has acess to all manner of ata and intelligence; they are not just relying on interviews and publicly known documents. The SCO has access to not only DOJ/FBI data, it also can tap into the CIA, NSA, IRS, and all manner of other sources; I wouldn't be surprised if the SC has already gotten a hold of those tax records Trump has been so fearfully trying to guard. When the Manafort filing and the Cohen plea bargain went into court the other day, the data in the court papers was just the gloss on the surface; there is an extremely high certainty the emails, conversations, and other communications cited are backed up by intelligence the SC has yet to reveal. Trump's worst fears may be about to be realized...

Trump has also lost access to a source for intel against the SC when the DEMs took the House: Devin Nunes, Trump's faithful snitch will lose his chairmanship of the House Intelligence Committee and he will be replaced by Adam Schiff, someone who holds no fear of Trump and also someone whom Trump was ill-advised to have provoked...

BTW, some time back in this thread someone asked if I was in the CA 38th Congressional district (I am), which is represented by Schiff. Schiff won reelection to a new term, beating his GOP opponent: Schiff 76.4% to Nalbandian's 23.6. To be fair, Nalbandian was an extremely lightweight candidate who, as far as I could see or know didn't really bother to campaign; it makes one wonder why he even bothered to run...

Nunes, on the other hand, seems to be suffering some from his recent shenanigans; he did win reelection, but he only got 53.5% of the vote; in 2016, he got 67.6%, and in 2014, he got a whopping 72.0% of the vote; the end result is a loss of 14.1& over the last two years and a loss of 18.5% over the last four years; what makes it more disturbing for Nunes is his District, CA-22, is strongly GOP and Nunes is the hometown kid; he even has the advantage of being a Portuguese descendant in a District with a high Portuguese-American voting population. Gee, I wonder what he did that made his constituents lose so much faith in him? Could it be he runs with (or runs to) the wrong crowd?...











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[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

Those who are wishfully thinking Trump and his cronies are out of the woods (a fantasy, you might call it) have overloaded the fact the SCO has not even made public the bulk of the evidence they have accumulated.

That's true but it is wishful thinking to fantasize about the contents. The opposite might be true... Mueller is withholding any evidence that might exonerate Trump.

Contrary to media speculation that Robert Mueller is closing in on President Trump, the special prosecutor’s plea deal with Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen offers further evidence that the Trump campaign did not collude with Russians during the 2016 election, according to congressional investigators and former prosecutors.

https://www.realclearinvestigations....ing_trump.html

Mueller is only releasing information that is damaging to the President. He is building a public relations case, not a criminal case. The question is, is he withholding exculpatory evidence to build this public relations case? I guess we'll have to wait and see. If he is then the partisan nature of the investigation becomes evident. Mueller's original task was to investigate "any possible links or coordination between Donald Trump's presidential campaign and the Russian government","and any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation." It would seem that Mueller is now entirely focused on the second part which is a pretty broad net that would probably include jaywalking. Mueller is not investigating crime, he is creating crimes by catching people in lies about the investigation. These are process crimes which have to do with the investigation not the actual crime i.e., collusion with Russia. Does Mueller actually have evidence of this collusion? Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulos, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen and Rick Gates have all pleaded guilty in relation to Mueller’s investigation, though none have admitted to colluding with Russia. The guy who was under surveillance by the FISA warrents, Carter Page has not been charged with any crime. They are running out of Trump associates to talk to.

I fear that the never Trumpers and their minnions (what a dumb word) may be disappointed in the long run. Time will tell.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by u crank

That's true but it is wishful thinking to fantasize about the contents. The opposite might be true... Mueller is withholding any evidence that might exonerate Trump.

...

Mueller is only releasing information that is damaging to the President. He is building a public relations case, not a criminal case. The question is, is he withholding exculpatory evidence to build this public relations case? I guess we'll have to wait and see. If he is then the partisan nature of the investigation becomes evident. Mueller's original task was to investigate "any possible links or coordination between Donald Trump's presidential campaign and the Russian government","and any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation." It would seem that Mueller is now entirely focused on the second part which is a pretty broad net that would probably include jaywalking. Mueller is not investigating crime, he is creating crimes by catching people in lies about the investigation. These are process crimes which have to do with the investigation not the actual crime i.e., collusion with Russia. Does Mueller actually have evidence of this collusion? Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulos, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen and Rick Gates have all pleaded guilty in relation to Mueller’s investigation, though none have admitted to colluding with Russia. The guy who was under surveillance by the FISA warrents, Carter Page has not been charged with any crime. They are running out of Trump associates to talk to.

I fear that the never Trumpers and their minnions (what a dumb word) may be disappointed in the long run. Time will tell.

The counter to the above is the very high certainty Trump minions in Congress have been working mightily to keep evidence and information that is potentially damaging to Trump from the sight of the American people, e.g., the House Intelligence Committee chaired by Devin Nunes and his merry band majority of GOP members who, over the objections of DEM members of the Committee, and other members of the House of both parties, selectively released redacted reports and/or leaked selective info basically designed to attempt to derail The SCO investigation. I wonder if any of the HIC actions could be seen as impeding a Federal investigation in progress...

As far as saying there must be no real substance to the SCOs case because so-and-so or so-and-so have not been indicted is specious; the lack of an indictment does not automatically mean there is no case; its still relatively early and, from the court filings by the SCO thus far, really the only metric by which to asses the progress of the case since Mueller and his team have been surprisingly tightly secure and leak-resistant, it seems the SCO is building its case(s) from the ground up, carefully establishing who did what, when, and weaving the fabric of the links that may exist. This is not uncommon for prosecutor faced with a multiplex case and is common in cases such as racketeering, organized crime, or other complex criminal nets. As I stated before, what is now being seen by the public as reported in the press is just the veneer; the SCO has at its disposal resources including intel from email, text message, phone intercepts, etc.; it is not out of the realm of possibility that, when the final indictments do come down, the SCO will back them up with evidence and timelines, etc, that the accused probably never imagined as possible. Just loom at any past major organized crime or criminal conspiracy cases and you will see a very great many of them had very surprised defendants who didn't realize just how far good investigative work and the wonders of new technology could upend them. Look at just Flynn's situation: do you really think the NSA, FBI, and /or the CIA weren't monitoring the activities of the foreign nationals with whom Flynn had contact, even before Flynn entered the picture, or that the relevant agencies weren't actively monitoring/intercepting their communications? All that data, and a whole lot more, are at the disposal of the SCO...

Speaking of Flynn, the sentencing document from the SCO was filed late yesterday:

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...92-46-1-2.html

there was this excerpt that seemed to catch the most media attention:

The defendant’s history and characteristics present mitigating and aggravating circumstances. As detailed in the Presentence Investigation Report (“PSR”), the defendant’s military and public service are exemplary. He served in the military for over 33 years, including five years of combat duty, led the Defense Intelligence Agency, and retired as a 3-star Lieutenant General. See PSR (Doc. 44) at ¶¶ 70-71. The defendant’s record of military and public service distinguish him from every other person who has been charged as part the SCO’s investigation. However, senior government leaders should be held to the highest standards. The defendant’s extensive government service should have made him particularly aware of the harm caused by providing false information to the government, as well as the rules governing work performed on behalf of a foreign government.

The defendant deserves credit for accepting responsibility in a timely fashion and substantially assisting the government. As described in the Addendum, shortly after the SCO reached out to the defendant to seek his cooperation, the defendant accepted responsibility for his unlawful conduct and began cooperating with the government.

The line "However, senior government leaders should be held to the highest standards." signals the SCO is not going to be light on those who will be ultimately charged, something Trump's minions, and perhaps, Trump himself might want to keep in mind...

Another point to note: on the first page of the "ADDENDUM TO GOVERNMENT'S MEMORANDUM IN AID OF SENTENCING", the second paragraph starts with the statement:

The defendant has assisted with several ongoing investigations...

Note the "several' in the sentence: as with many criminal investigations involving criminal enterprises, a primary investigation can lead to the discovery of other criminal activity which, as a duty of any prosecutor, must be followed to ascertain if those activities contributed to or supported the primary offense. The fiction the Trump minions are trying to foist off on the American public that the sole focus and purpose of the SCO's commission is just Russian collusion is a lie, as are so many other of their desperate attempts to wriggle out of the mess they, themselves, created; collusion was never the sole target of the investigation; in fact, the letter Rosenstein signed appointing the SCO is explicit in the scope of the investigation:

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...r-special.html

(b) The Special Counsel i s authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including

(i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and

(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and

(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).


(c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters.

So far, I haven't seen any hard evidence of the SCO violation any of the above, the bellicose and frantic flutterings of the Trump camp notwithstanding...












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[u crank]

Interesting article in Vanity Fair by T.A. Frank. Interesting and remarkable considering that publication's left leaning bias. The title says it all...IS THIS IT?: A TRUMP-HATER’S GUIDE TO MUELLER SKEPTICISM.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018...ler-skepticism

This is the kind of thing that is needed as a balance to the anti Trump hysteria that consumes people on the left, their media cohorts and their never Trump allies on the right. There are things about the Mueller probe that the people who are drooling about Trump's demise should be thinking about. I would say that few are. None of them are considering the future of US politics and the impact that this hysteria will have.

The weapons you create for your side today will be used by the other side against you tomorrow. Do we really want the special-counsel investigation to become a staple of presidential life? It’s a creation with few boundaries on scope and a setup that encourages the selection of a suspect followed by a search for the crime, rather than the other way around. This caused calamities in the era of Bill Clinton, and it doesn't get any better just because the partisan dynamics are reversed.

Mueller is obviously a hero to some but he represents the worst of prosecutorial overreach in the American system. The ability to destroy the lives of his targets to procure testimony against other targets. Micheal Flynn is an obvious example. No one bats an eye when these tactics are used against mafia types but Michael Flynn, a decorated 38 year veteran. Destroying him financially and threatening his son to obtain testimony. Shameful behavior. If Mueller's team investigated Mueller what would they find?

Former FBI Director James Comey enforced two sets of rules, one for Hillary Clinton and the Democrats, and one for Trump.

Certainly, Trump’s ethical standards are low, but if sleaziness were a crime then many more people from our ruling class would be in jail. It is sleazy, but not criminal, to try to find out in advance what WikiLeaks has on Hillary Clinton. It is sleazy, but not criminal, to take a meeting in Trump Tower with a Russian lawyer promising a dossier of dirt on Clinton. (Just as, it should be mentioned, it is sleazy, but not criminal, to pay a guy to go to Russia to put together a dossier of dirt on Trump.

Mueller's probe will likely end up painting a very unflattering portrait of the Trump presidency and his dealings before 2016. It may even find criminal or ethical crimes or it may just suggest them. But to what end?

Like (Ken)Starr, Mueller is also likely to include footnotes and selections that will hint at criminality, the things he suspects but couldn’t prove, and the most ardent believers in collusion will claim vindication. But the international conspiracies will be few, and the collateral damage of the Russia scare will be extensive, stretching far beyond Trump or his circle to the country as a whole. It might hurt a president who many Americans hate, but even the president’s most ardent foes should reflect on a question that will linger: Was it worth it?

[Mr Quatro]

Mueller is a servant of the people for the people by the people and should not be releasing any information except to the US Congress who then in turn will decide if the evidence warrants any further reviews.

In fact that is where his final report will go and by the length and scope of this investigation the US Congress is now heavy weighted against not only President Trump, but the entire GOP who has the power to say yes or no to impeachment which is the worst case scenario.

I've said it before and I will say it again no matter what Mueller comes up with and no matter what the US Congress decides to act on ... President Trump will run in 2020 and win the race against Bernie or Biden or Clinton.

Trump will then stand down and turn over the White House to VP Pence ... Why has yet to be determined ...

I will ear mark this post to say I told you so.

[Onkel Neal]

The worst the Mueller investigation can do is lead to Trump's removal. And that will make Mike pence president. So win win. And then the left will start work on him

[Bilge_Rat]

so Trump has nominated William Barr to be AG.

Barr served as AG Under Bush senior in 1991-92, but is still only 68.


On the surface, it looks like a brillant play:

1. it undercuts the attacks against Whitaker which are now academic;

2. Barr has already been confirmed by the Senate as AG, so it is hard to see what Democrats could use this time to say he is unqualified;

3. Barr served as AG under Bush senior who everyone in Washington just finished praising as a great President, so again hard to see what Democrats could use this time to say he is unqualified;

[August]

You'd think that but the Dems will find a way.

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

so Trump has nominated William Barr to be AG.

Barr served as AG Under Bush senior in 1991-92, but is still only 68.


On the surface, it looks like a brillant play:

1. it undercuts the attacks against Whitaker which are now academic;

2. Barr has already been confirmed by the Senate as AG, so it is hard to see what Democrats could use this time to say he is unqualified;

3. Barr served as AG under Bush senior who everyone in Washington just finished praising as a great President, so again hard to see what Democrats could use this time to say he is unqualified;

Barr may have been seen smoking a joint with a girl in the back seat of his car in his High School parking lot back in 1968. Not sure it was him yet, but Ms Ford will be glad to testify that it was him for only $650,000 in Go fund me funds

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

The worst the Mueller investigation can do is lead to Trump's removal. And that will make Mike pence president. So win win.

So back to Republicans running and hiding whenever the democrats shout racist, or Nazi, or anti-however many letters it is now I've lost track? Back to always moving toward the left, because we all know when the word "compromise" is used it means the right gives ground?

[vienna]

Well, the "very stable genius" has spoken on the economy:

Since the 2016 presidential campaign, Donald Trump’s aides and advisers have tried to convince him of the importance of tackling the national debt.

Sources close to the president say he has repeatedly shrugged it off, implying that he doesn’t have to worry about the money owed to America’s creditors—currently about $21 trillion—because he won’t be around to shoulder the blame when it becomes even more untenable.

The friction came to a head in early 2017 when senior officials offered Trump charts and graphics laying out the numbers and showing a “hockey stick” spike in the national debt in the not-too-distant future. In response, Trump noted that the data suggested the debt would reach a critical mass only after his possible second term in office.

“Yeah, but I won’t be here,” the president bluntly said, according to a source who was in the room when Trump made this comment during discussions on the debt.

Trump on Coming Debt Crisis: ‘I Won’t Be Here’ When It Blows Up --


https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...en-it-blows-up


Nice to know he's got real plan...















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[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

Nice to know he's got real plan...

Yep. And it's not a very original one. Same one all his predecessors had.

[vienna]

One more he should join them out of office...












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[eddie]

Nice to know the Republicans have the moral high ground,lol How's that election in North Carolina going? And to think that Trump complained about voter fraud!!

[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

One more he should join them out of office.

Don't know if you ever noticed it .... but eventually they all do.