Why dont american subs have german like conning towers?

[Steeltrap]

In their later designs, USA subs featured 'cut down' towers to lower the visibility to enemies.

These were retrofitted to existing boats as part of re-fits/maintenance. For example, the USS Wahoo had hers cut down from the original, pre-war fleet boat config. prior to her 6th patrol (I think it was her 6th). There's a pic of her leaving Midway Island in Dick O'Kane's book "Wahoo".

'Mush' Morton was the first of the USA sub skippers to show what could be achieved with aggressive, realistic use of the fleet boats' capabilities. He replaced the pre-war skipper of the Wahoo following his PCO patrol, sailing as skipper from Brisbane Australia. He used surface, night attacks - the lack of the 'night' scope was largely due to the fact that the designers felt that the larger 'head' of the scope (needed to allow a capture of more light vs. day scope) made the scope too visible.....pre-war USA sub doctrines bred a real phobia about having your scope spotted into the skippers.

Interesting stuff.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

the lack of the 'night' scope was largely due to the fact that the designers felt that the larger 'head' of the scope (needed to allow a capture of more light vs. day scope) made the scope too visible.....pre-war USA sub doctrines bred a real phobia about having your scope spotted into the skippers.

Interesting stuff.

http://http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/periscope.html

In order for a submerged submarine to sink an enemy ship, some means of aiming the torpedoes was required. Different navies evolved different methodologies. During the inter-war period, U.S. doctrine favored the use of Sonar for determining target range, bearing, and angle. It was believed that advances in detection and anti-submarine weapons had made it suicidal to expose a periscope in daylight. To this end, the U.S. Navy installed highly advanced Sonar and hydrophone suites in their fleet submarines, along with Torpedo Data Computers that remained significantly more advanced than anything used in any other navy until well after the war had ended.
In fact, Sonar attacks while submerged turned out to be remarkably ineffective under actual wartime conditions. Falling into one of the more common military fallacies, the U.S. Navy developed a theory, then saw test results through the lens of that theory. Any results that seemed to back up the theory were eagerly embraced, while results that failed to back up the theory were put down to "operator error." This tendency continued well into the war, to the degree that a number of commanders were relieved for "lack of agression" when the actually problem was that the torpedoes they were firing didn't work. (The Bureau of Ordinance said that the torpedoes did work, and since they couldn't possibly be wrong about that, it had to be the commanders.)

[goose814]

I've been to the USS Cod over a dozen times over the years. I've gotten to see many changes and improvemnets. For instance, when I first went, the crews quarters was empty and used as a display room. Now it's been fully equiped with bunks and other gear. Never get tired of going. I would live on her if given the chance. Anyway, one of the best things I like about her is that she hasn't been altered to allow for easier access. You've got to go through the same hatches that the crew did. Access to the conning tower isn't permitted, unfortunately, but your allowed to climb partway up the ladder and poke your head in to look around at least. I also like the fact that you can roam free at your leisure and spend as much time as you want onboard. On some of the other subs I've been on there was a guide who you had to stay with. I hate that. Never enough time to look things over. Anyway, I highly recommend seeing her. You won't be disappointed.

Gus

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Originally Posted by goose814

I've been to the USS Cod over a dozen times over the years. I've gotten to see many changes and improvemnets. For instance, when I first went, the crews quarters was empty and used as a display room. Now it's been fully equiped with bunks and other gear. Never get tired of going. I would live on her if given the chance. Anyway, one of the best things I like about her is that she hasn't been altered to allow for easier access. You've got to go through the same hatches that the crew did. Access to the conning tower isn't permitted, unfortunately, but your allowed to climb partway up the ladder and poke your head in to look around at least. I also like the fact that you can roam free at your leisure and spend as much time as you want onboard. On some of the other subs I've been on there was a guide who you had to stay with. I hate that. Never enough time to look things over. Anyway, I highly recommend seeing her. You won't be disappointed.

Gus

Where is the old gal?

[The WosMan]

The boat is located in Cleveland, Ohio off of N. Marginal right next to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I was actually there yesterday (not my first time) with a family friend that was visiting who likes military history. I took some pictures so enjoy:


Here is the boat as she floats on the water


Here is the conning tower.....note all the flags on her including a count for the Japanese Junks she sunk (HA HA!) I wonder what she used on them. The AA guns were probably enough.


Bow shot looking down the ship

My dad and I taking aim at Burke Lakefront Airport.


AA Gun.......you can't go up there though


You start off here in the fore torpedo room


Torpedo 2 and 5 ready.


Here is one of the officers quarters (I think the skippers)


The officer's mess (fine dining at it's best)


Radio room


Crew's mess......very spacious I think

[The WosMan]

We all know this one! Very important for underwater too.


Here are the ballast controls


I think this was the TDC or a firing control of some type...had all kinds of switches for gyro angles and such.


Here is one of the diesel engines.......huge.......still capable of operation too! The engines were built in Cleveland, Ohio too.


Here are the electric engine controls



Battery motor control and electric gauges


Here are the clutches/controls for operating the electric engines.

All and all very cool place to visit. I hope they pay close attention when they make SHIV and maybe go to this boat for ideas on how to do a Gato right. One glaring thing to me on the boat is that while to some people the boat is cramped and small......the boats were one heck of a lot bigger than the german uboats and it really shows. US fleet subs were the Ritz Carlton while the Germans stayed at the Motel 6.

[Driftwood]

Great pics Wosman! Thanks for putting them up! Can't wait for SHIV or that latest Gato model by Revell! The 3-4' one!

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Wich one is you?

[don1reed]

re: TDC

I believe that the USS Pampanito is the only remaining boat that still has an operating TDC (located in the con)

see tour:

http://www.maritime.org/tour/tctvr.htm

[Safe-Keeper]

Here is the conning tower.....note all the flags on her including a count for the Japanese Junks she sunk (HA HA!) I wonder what she used on them. The AA guns were probably enough.

Somebody had better get a better idea of what the Jap navy consisted of before taking on Silent Hunter IV (just teasing):p.

[DeepSix]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

From my understanding, US submarines were infact designed around an entirely different philophy, and sinking merchant shipping wasn't it. They were designed to run with the fleet. Hence the term, "Fleet boat". If you look at some of the nonclamture (number of engines, surface speed and endurance) of the Gato, it almost spells out, "keeping up with the fleet".

Breaking them off from the fleet and using them against merchants was an afterthought.

Yeah, pretty much. Thus the reference to Mahan above. The predominant theory was that naval supremacy was secured by a "fleet in being." When two of these were brought together for a fight, it was to be a decisive battle. This is what killed Japan - despite their brilliant air power victory at Pearl Harbor. They fought all of the war with the idea of luring the American navy to the "decisive battle."

Anyway, with subs, they really spent their early development being thought of as coastal defense boats - sort of like mobile shore batteries. The early attempts at "fleet boats" were boats intended to keep up with and support the fleet. I think the 'S' boats fall into that category. At any rate, the S-boats didn't work as far as keeping up with the fleet went, so subs acquired a little bit more operational independence. A little later (IIRC in the 30s), some strategists (I think Lockwood was one of them, maybe Ralph Christie also) favored using the sub as a long range scout. It would have to have long range and stay out for about 60 days, but not necessarily the top speed required to follow the fleet "in formation" - it would instead lie off enemy ports and watch and report enemy naval moves. In the event the "decisive battle" seemed to be brewing, it would attempt to intercept and sink the fleet elements coming out of the port it was watching.

[cmdrk]

Oh by the way - they're not conning towers - they are 'Fairwaters'

Where did that term come from? :hmm:

[don1reed]

...my guess is you'd put too fine a point on it to call it a "Conning Tower Fairwater".

Over the years the lexicon of nautical expression has reduced the term to just simply, Conning tower, or Conn. In nautical expression and lingo the captain would not hand over the, "Fairwater" to the watch officer, would he? Of course not, he hands off the, "Conn", and every salty "Richard" knows what the captain's talking about, too, I'll wager.

If one "googles" either term...guess which one wins as being related to submarines the most?

[cmdrk]

Originally Posted by don1reed

...my guess is you'd put too fine a point on it to call it a "Conning Tower Fairwater".

I was just throwing out the term. It is used often in the below book.
'Stern, Robert C. U.S. Subs in Action. Squadron/Signal Publications, 1979.'

So, I thought it might be good to bring up. Today 'conn' is the word to use. Back 60 years ago, the terminology was different.

Also when SH4 comes out, call me Skipper and not Kaleun.

Edit:
Found this info on the net. Clears a few points up for me:
"The fairwater is a structure above the main hull of a submarine that serves to streamline and protect the conning tower. If the submarine does not have a conning tower, the structure is known as the sail (US) or fin (UK). On top of the fairwater is the bridge which is only used when the submarine is surfaced.

The terms conning tower, fairwater, and sail are often (incorrectly) used interchangeably."

[don1reed]

The terms conning tower, fairwater, and sail are often (incorrectly) used interchangeably."

I take it then, you intend to correct a century of misused terms

...good luck..

seriously, Cmdrk, call it what you like, although more will understand your meaning if you call it conning tower.