Should a soldier be excused if he went on a rampage. - Page 4

PeriscopeDepth · 06-02-06, 03:03 PM

Great post.

PD

Skybird · 06-02-06, 04:14 PM

Yahoshua points at the human reality of a soldier, like I myself did, but not as detailed. I agree, but one also needs to look beyond that. This siutation does not come as a surprise. Historians and theorists have described exactly this situation before the war. the leaders had been told. They could have red it in reports and books. Listen to it in speeches and interviews. I received quite some bashing back then when I also said that it necessarily, unevitably must come to a situation like we now have in Iraq. Why is it that Americans did not believe? Drunk of their own heroified self-image? History taught so many examples before. Or Afghanistan, several times russian commanders, on official as well as private levels, have offered to share their experiences with the americans - and got slammed a door in their face. "Too kind of you, but we know it better." Tzz. Tell you what - in ten years, at the latest, Afghanistan will be again where it was before 2001. Take me by my word.

Again, the introducing article that I quoted here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93733

Bill Nichols · 06-02-06, 06:00 PM

I have just two words for this: war crimes

Skybird · 06-02-06, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

I have just two words for this: war crimes

Absolutely. But crimes usually have causes. One needs to understand these causes in order to prevent future crimes.

scandium · 06-02-06, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Well it must have been given as a reason sometime otherwise I wouldn't have heard about it.

That is some fine reasoning there.

scandium · 06-02-06, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Were the actions excusable? No. They were not. Was this preventable? Absolutely. So who f*cked up? Because I'm seeing that the sh*t rolls both downhill AND uphill. I can see exactly how everything went to hell for this guy. But he should've been seeing a psychiatrist for acute stress long before this happened.

One must also take into account that these soldiers must act honorably, in an unhonorable war. That in itself, is a high commendation to their character and determination while under pressure.

I don't disagree with any of this. There are reasons why this happened, and my own feeling is that I can sympathize with their circumstances leading up to it but without excusing their actions. Meanwhile there is undoubtedly blame that goes higher up for putting these people into this pressure cooker and to what end? It has to have a definite impact upon at least some of the people there when they are told they're being sent there to disarm Iraq of WMDs that are never found yet they still have to be there; that they are being sent there because Iraq is being connected to 9/11 only there turns out to be no credible basis for this connection and they still have to be there; and that they are being sent to liberate these people from their brutal dictator, only to find the response, when that's done, is a brutal insurgency... and yet they still have to be there. These may be inconvient facts for people here who continue to support this fiasco, but I'd imagine at least some of the people who have to fight over there must think about these things now and then. And then it is topped off by repeated tours and Stop Loss measures.

Yahoshua · 06-02-06, 11:52 PM

Personally I dont give a damn whether or not there were WMDs' there to begin with, Saddam should've been taken down the first time around.

But other than that I agree with everything else you've said.

And (I hope I'm not beating a dead-horse here) what's worse about this situation is that we (the U.S.) are stuck there in Iraq until they can stand on their own feet again. If we leave and Iraq collapses and becomes another terrorist haven, we've failed the purpose of having stayed longer than it was needed to destroy the former gov't. And a retreat at this point would completely destroy the morale of our troops rather than bloodying it through the prolonged stay we have now gotten stuck in.

In my opinion this is where the draft of prison inmates into Penal Batallions sounds really good to me. One step out of line and it's a bullet through the skull. Opens up room in the prisons, gets rid of any scumbags that society doesn't want, and will sure as hell straighten them out (or they can be kept in indefinitely if they dont).

Iceman · 06-03-06, 02:48 AM

Excused?....Yes

He should be excused from further service to go to the nearest hospital, mental institution or jail...whichever is decided upon by his superiors.

Only on Earth...what a question.

That's as dumb as asking should I do good or evil?...it's all a matter of perpesctive and choice.

But I did vote for the Nazi's...they are behind it all .

Skybird · 06-03-06, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

If we leave and Iraq collapses and becomes another terrorist haven,

If? Is. The war is lost, since longer. Get your people out of there. Nothing is left that could be acchieved. They are left in harm's way all for nothing, to protect the image of election-interested candidates who don't give a dime about their life or death, health or woundings, mental peace or inner destruction. Bush does not want to admit that he made terrible mistakes, and that is why the troops are still there. Mission Impossible.

August · 06-03-06, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

If? Is. The war is lost, since longer. Get your people out of there. Nothing is left that could be acchieved. They are left in harm's way all for nothing, to protect the image of election-interested candidates who don't give a dime about their life or death, health or woundings, mental peace or inner destruction. Bush does not want to admit that he made terrible mistakes, and that is why the troops are still there. Mission Impossible.

Election interested candidates? Which ones would those be?

Wim Libaers · 06-03-06, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subnuts

Do we get to eat the victims afterwords? I mean, it seems like a terrible waste of time to go around lining up people and shooting them for no reason if you're not going to eat them later. Sure the terrorists look tough but I've never seen one eat a fresh corpse. No one would dare oppose America if we went around eating our enemies, especially if our troops started eating random people. :hmm:

Eating your own species? There are serious health risks involved.

Yahoshua · 06-03-06, 12:38 PM

If the Iraqi gov't can stand on their opwn feet, perform insurgency ops and otherwise get their parliament off their ass and running the country. We win.

Destroying the insurgency is not our problem at the moment, it is getting the Iraqi gov't set up so they can replace us. And I seriously doubt that Iraq will be absolutely devoid of any U.S. presence. We're still in Germany and Japan.

DeepSix · 06-03-06, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Wish the poll had a simple "no". US Soldiers should never lose it like this, and never shoot children unless they are packing.

Right. My vote is "no."

Konovalov · 06-03-06, 05:39 PM

On a side note to this discussion I was up at 1am here in the UK Wednesday morning and watched on tv The Factor (Fox News Channel), with its host Bill O'Reilly. One of the main segments was on the alleged Haditha massacre and O'Reilly had as guest Ret. Gen. Wesley Clarke. O'Reillys angle for this story is in trying to divert attention and play down this alleged incident in Iraq. In doing so he makes what I thought was a collossal gaff. In it he claimed that American GI's massacred German SS soldiers at Malmedy. I kid you not that is what he said. Now I've learned that this is actually the second time he has made such a ridiculous claim. View for yourself here the transcipt and more importantly the video from the segment from Tuesday which also feaures the first time he make the same false accusation:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200606030002

You will also find that the Fox News transcipt does not reflect what Bill O'Reilly actually said. This is an absolute disgrace and O'Reilly should make a public apology.

Onkel Neal · 06-03-06, 05:44 PM

O'Reilly has been on my "Ignore" list for several years. He's making noise to improve his ratings.

View Poll Results: Should a soldier be excused if he went on a rampage.
Soldiers are not suppose to lose it ever!	18	47.37%
If i saw my unit buddies blown to bits i think i have a right to lose it	4	10.53%
What did you expect its war!	7	18.42%
I thought only nazis took villages out.	9	23.68%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

06-02-06, 04:14 PM	#47
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,654 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Yahoshua points at the human reality of a soldier, like I myself did, but not as detailed. I agree, but one also needs to look beyond that. This siutation does not come as a surprise. Historians and theorists have described exactly this situation before the war. the leaders had been told. They could have red it in reports and books. Listen to it in speeches and interviews. I received quite some bashing back then when I also said that it necessarily, unevitably must come to a situation like we now have in Iraq. Why is it that Americans did not believe? Drunk of their own heroified self-image? History taught so many examples before. Or Afghanistan, several times russian commanders, on official as well as private levels, have offered to share their experiences with the americans - and got slammed a door in their face. "Too kind of you, but we know it better." Tzz. Tell you what - in ten years, at the latest, Afghanistan will be again where it was before 2001. Take me by my word. Again, the introducing article that I quoted here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93733 __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-02-06 at 04:19 PM.

06-02-06, 06:00 PM	#48
Bill Nichols Master of Defense Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 1,502 Downloads: 125 Uploads: 0	I have just two words for this: war crimes __________________ My Dangerous Waters website:

06-03-06, 05:39 PM	#59
Konovalov Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: High Wycombe, Bucks, UK Posts: 2,811 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	On a side note to this discussion I was up at 1am here in the UK Wednesday morning and watched on tv The Factor (Fox News Channel), with its host Bill O'Reilly. One of the main segments was on the alleged Haditha massacre and O'Reilly had as guest Ret. Gen. Wesley Clarke. O'Reillys angle for this story is in trying to divert attention and play down this alleged incident in Iraq. In doing so he makes what I thought was a collossal gaff. In it he claimed that American GI's massacred German SS soldiers at Malmedy. I kid you not that is what he said. Now I've learned that this is actually the second time he has made such a ridiculous claim. View for yourself here the transcipt and more importantly the video from the segment from Tuesday which also feaures the first time he make the same false accusation: http://mediamatters.org/items/200606030002 You will also find that the Fox News transcipt does not reflect what Bill O'Reilly actually said. This is an absolute disgrace and O'Reilly should make a public apology. __________________ "In a Christian context, sexuality is traditionally seen as a consequence of the Fall, but for Muslims, it is an anticipation of paradise. So I can say, I think, that I was validly converted to Islam by a teenage French Jewish nudist." Sheikh Abdul-Hakim Murad (Timothy Winter)

06-03-06, 05:44 PM	#60
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	O'Reilly has been on my "Ignore" list for several years. He's making noise to improve his ratings. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

06-02-06, 03:03 PM	#46
PeriscopeDepth Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,894 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Great post. PD

06-02-06, 11:52 PM	#52
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Personally I dont give a damn whether or not there were WMDs' there to begin with, Saddam should've been taken down the first time around. But other than that I agree with everything else you've said. And (I hope I'm not beating a dead-horse here) what's worse about this situation is that we (the U.S.) are stuck there in Iraq until they can stand on their own feet again. If we leave and Iraq collapses and becomes another terrorist haven, we've failed the purpose of having stayed longer than it was needed to destroy the former gov't. And a retreat at this point would completely destroy the morale of our troops rather than bloodying it through the prolonged stay we have now gotten stuck in. In my opinion this is where the draft of prison inmates into Penal Batallions sounds really good to me. One step out of line and it's a bullet through the skull. Opens up room in the prisons, gets rid of any scumbags that society doesn't want, and will sure as hell straighten them out (or they can be kept in indefinitely if they dont).

06-03-06, 02:48 AM	#53
Iceman Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mesa AZ, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,253 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Excused?....Yes He should be excused from further service to go to the nearest hospital, mental institution or jail...whichever is decided upon by his superiors. Only on Earth...what a question. That's as dumb as asking should I do good or evil?...it's all a matter of perpesctive and choice. But I did vote for the Nazi's...they are behind it all .

06-03-06, 12:38 PM	#57
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If the Iraqi gov't can stand on their opwn feet, perform insurgency ops and otherwise get their parliament off their ass and running the country. We win. Destroying the insurgency is not our problem at the moment, it is getting the Iraqi gov't set up so they can replace us. And I seriously doubt that Iraq will be absolutely devoid of any U.S. presence. We're still in Germany and Japan.