How many kills would a Kilo be expected to make?

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

This is my take on why the Kilo is considered a littoral/coastal boat and not an ocean/deep water one. First of all, the Kilo has limited range due to it being diesel propelled. So it could simply run out of diesel?

Also, add to that the fact that it's not very fast.

[Wildcat]

Uboats managed just fine during the 1940's out in the middle of the ocean. The things that stopped them were air patrols, radar and constant active sonar use.

With those things in mind, what's stopping a KILO from transiting on the surface or snorkeling to a patrol zone or choke point?

If advanced knowledge of a convoy or even just a single ship is available, it's pretty easy for them to just sit there and wait to be overrun.

And with radar detection abilities, they can detect any aircraft or ships with radar on long before they can be spotted visually (or on radar for that matter).

It's not worth underestimating the usefulness of an Iranian kilo.

We are basically talking about a sub that is far better than a type 21 electric uboat, and although western technologies have improved drastically, the element of surprise has remained the same since ww2. If a sub commander knows where a ship is going to be, he can sit there and wait at 1 knot for days until he's ready to attack passing ships.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

First of all, the Kilo has limited range due to it being diesel propelled.

That doesn't mean that it cannot operate in deep waters. And honestly all vehicles have a limited range

So it could simply run out of diesel?

A nuke could also run out of fuel if it cruises to long without refuling. What's your point ? Ah you mean the Kilo cannot cruise for ever ? Well that's true but 8000nm seem to me enough to get to blue waters operate there and get back if the blue water is close enough to the home base. Of course if the tactical situation permits could a tender be placed forward and refule them, if the situation would require it to let them operate so far away from the home base.

You also have to factor in it has to surface every now and then...which is not a good idea in a shooting war, right?

Ahh, you mean snurkel ?

The time where diesel/electric boats had to surface now and then are gone since WWII.

Without any doubt is snurkeling a hell of a tactical disadvantage. That doesn't mean it cannot operate in blue waters. Even if a sub is build explicitely for coastile operations, that doesn't mean it cannot operate in blue waters. Like the type 206a that is truly a coastile sub but still operates in the carribian during manouvers and "blow" ships out of the water.

It's surviveability might be questionable AFTER it releases it's weapos. Obviously it can't run away like a nuke and can miss the BG much easier than a nuke. But it's alot harder to detect. And when the BG comes close enough to it then it's in trouble(and the Kilo too). But trading a Kilo for a carrier is a good deal.

Secondly, your making it do something it wasn;t built to do, i.e. fight in blue water environment against boats which were designed just for this purpose.

It's finaly up to the naval command and the circumstances what they will be tasked against and where. Was the type VII a blue water sub ? And still it fought in blue waters. You learn something from history, do ya ?

And who have said that they were not build for blue waters ? And how should they have been build in your opinion in order to be blue water capeable ?

Look i can build tanks to defend my country. That means it's a devensive weapon. But that doesn't mean i cannot attack with it. You getting my point ?

BTW: The Kilo was meant to replace the Whiskeys that operated in the shallow waters of the east sea and the black sea. It's shorter and thicker hull suggest that it's definately shallow water capeable. But it's designed as a conventional all-purpose attack submarine. Thus its designation SS and not SSK. Capeable of shallow and blue waters as well, given the blue water is within it's operational range.

The only real difference betwin a coastile diesel/electric submaine and a blue water diesel/electric submarine that i see is the range(size) and maybe a bigger weapon store and some other minor things like a more thiner and longer hull. Did i left anything significant out ?

The Kilo seem to have all equipment to hunt even submarines. The only disadvantage is it's conventional propulsion system and it's range that will permit blue water operation when its fuel source is close enough to it.

There are people with much more of a valid opinion here but this just seems obvious to me.

Sorry i didn't meant to question your authority on submarine operations

BTW: Kaptain are you sure that it has a range of 8000nm ? My source states 6000nm for the Kilo.

Deamon

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

It's not worth underestimating the usefulness of an Iranian kilo.

Oh yeah, and diesel/electric u-boats were underestimated in two world wars to a high prize. I just want to reminde on U 53(715t) in WWI that crossed the atlantic paid a short visit to USA and then moved back home without refuling!

Not blue water capeable eh ?

Deamon

[Henson]

It's not that a kilo cannot be effective at all in blue water. The issue is that it is much MORE effective in close, littoral waters where contacts are moving slower and the environment is more constrained.

When you're driving to the grocery store do you drive down the street, or do you travel across three states?

Iran's navy has a different purpose than any superpower navy. The US Navy is built to project power, while the iranians are concerned with controlling a small patch of real estate for as long a period as possible.

Here is an example of a realistic problem of a Kilo against a CG and DDG (both ASW threats). A Kilo is cruising at 4 kts. A Surface Action Group is cruising at 25kts. The slowest this problem could develop is 21kts. If the periscope detection range of the kilo is 16Kyds and the best weapon range is 9Kyds, the kilo has a 10 minute window of time with which to maneuver into position and attack. That assumes that the SAG is headed directly towards the sub and the sub remains headed directly away from the SAG. If the situation were less than this ideal (which would more than likely be the case) there would be even less time to react. Add to that the Kilo's speed. At 4 kts (which is generous) the sub is only moving 133 yds/min. In that ten minute window of time the Kilo would only be capable of moving about 1/2 mile with any degree of stealth. Each knot that he puts into the line of sight works against his ticking clock, and if the SAG is zigging then he has very little opportunity to correct mistakes or react to changes.

The Kilo either has to be in perfect position already prepared to fire, or he has to get a shot at the stern of passing targets...not an ideal shot.

The blue water problem is possible, but not effective. Basically the Kilo has to get lucky. I would rather wait at a choke point where I KNOW ships will come. At that, the Kilo excels.

[Deamon]

You have some good points Henson,

and that's why it would be a good idea to put a chain of Kilos where the BG is expected to pass.

Originally Posted by Henson

The blue water problem is possible, but not effective. Basically the Kilo has to get lucky. I would rather wait at a choke point where I KNOW ships will come. At that, the Kilo excels.

That would be an ideal situation. But that is also where the BG would expect you to be. I'm also woundering how fast a modern Kilo can go while maintaing stealth.

Deamon

[Henson]

Originally Posted by Deamon

I'm also woundering how fast a modern Kilo can go while maintaing stealth.

Deamon

At shallow depths (ie PD, where ASUW attacks are carried out), no submarine can safely go very fast. At higher speeds, errors in depth control are magnified because the boat can 'run away' from you and give the Dive little time to react. Also, it is possible to literally bend a periscope and fairing if you move too fast.

In game it's just assumed that when you order a depth it will be maintained. In real life it's a bit more dicey, especially in higher swells that are typical of blue-water deep ocean environments. Direction of seas matters as well.

The other consideration is periscope feather. There are some compelling pictures out there of what a periscope feather/persicope wake looks like at different speeds. It makes a huge difference in detectability.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Henson

At shallow depths (ie PD, where ASUW attacks are carried out), no submarine can safely go very fast. At higher speeds, errors in depth control are magnified because the boat can 'run away' from you and give the Dive little time to react. Also, it is possible to literally bend a periscope and fairing if you move too fast.

Why not attack from deeper below and come to PD only to confirm your target and then dive again for attack ?

In game it's just assumed that when you order a depth it will be maintained.

Yes. While i have no naval service experiance i realized pretty quick, after starting in depth researches and reading historical accounts, how little is actualy simulated in all the games, and how much subtle aspects there are.

In real life it's a bit more dicey, especially in higher swells that are typical of blue-water deep ocean environments. Direction of seas matters as well.

The other consideration is periscope feather. There are some compelling pictures out there of what a periscope feather/persicope wake looks like at different speeds. It makes a huge difference in detectability.

This is basicaly the depth i want to give to my own project. There is so much stuff missig in games. It's often hardly a challange.

Feather ? Do you mean the spray around the scope ?

Do you know where to get some of that feather images ? I'm always looking for stuff like that.

Deamon

[TLAM Strike]

Smokeboat Diesels + Deep Water Sound Transmission Paths = Easy detections for SURTASS and TACTASS units at long range.

Think about it your operating in deep water where there are CZs and your signal goes much farther since there is no nice seafloor 200 feet down. A single CZ can bounce your signal 30 something miles away. Imagine if a P-3 or P-8 got wind of your operating area from Ocean Floor Sensors and started putting buoys every 15 miles, each one of those has about a 50% chance of detecting you and if you move on your diesels the odds of detection go up from there.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Smokeboat Diesels + Deep Water Sound Transmission Paths = Easy detections for SURTASS and TACTASS units at long range.

Yes, the diesel blue water combo sucks. But in the near future AIP's will rule this out. Then this will be a whole different ball game.

Think about it your operating in deep water where there are CZs

Don't snurkel in CZ's!

and your signal goes much farther since there is no nice seafloor 200 feet down.

Try to snurkel in bad acoustical conditions like bad weather conditions if possible or close to a loud ship for example. Don't snurkel with diesels running full speed. Let the diesels also run at different rpm's to avoid resonances.

Imagine if a P-3 or P-8 got wind of your operating area from Ocean Floor Sensors and started putting buoys every 15 miles, each one of those has about a 50% chance of detecting you and if you move on your diesels the odds of detection go up from there.

Buoys require calm seas. 3 meters high waves cause a transmission loss of 75% and 4,6 meters high waves cause a total transmission loss.

So if possible don't snurkel in calm seas in the enemies backyard. SOSUS is of course not your friend but eddies

AFAIK it's hopeless to track subs in eddies.

Deamon

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Yes, the diesel blue water combo sucks. But in the near future AIP's will rule this out. Then this will be a whole different ball game.

Well Iran doesn’t have any AIP subs so that’s beyond the scope of this discussion.

Don't snurkel in CZ's!

It may come down to snorkeling or dieing a dark cold death from CO2 poisoning.

Try to snurkel in bad acoustical conditions like bad weather conditions if possible...

You would not say that if you ever snorkeled in bad weather.

the COB maybe God but he dosn't control the weather.

...or close to a loud ship for example. Don't snurkel with diesels running full speed. Let the diesels also run at different rpm's to avoid resonances.

Good Points.

Buoys require calm seas. 3 meters high waves cause a transmission loss of 75% and 4,6 meters high waves cause a total transmission loss.

So if possible don't snurkel in calm seas in the enemies backyard. SOSUS is of course not your friend but eddies

AFAIK it's hopeless to track subs in eddies.

Deamon

See above in regads to God.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

the COB maybe God but he dosn't control the weather.

Ok, you won

But who is COB ?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Ok, you won

But who is COB ?

The Chief of the Boat.

[goldorak]

There is one thing i don't understand.
Buoys go to predetermined depths way below the surface.
So in what sense are they limited by bad weather ? :hmm:

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by goldorak

There is one thing i don't understand.
Buoys go to predetermined depths way below the surface.
So in what sense are they limited by bad weather ? :hmm:

That is the thing i also quite don't understand. I got it from my submarine book. Maybe it's the data link loss that is meant. Can someone confirm this ?

Deamon