I seriously don't get it......... - Page 4

August · 09-10-05, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Type941

You really do only see things in black and white, don't you August?

Quote:

Imagine Allied troops capturing the gulags in their heyday, everthing being photographed, filmed and broadcast to the entire world along with the stories of the surviving victims.

Troll.

Toll? Its ironic you should say that Mr. Kettle.

I deliberately drew the comparison to way nazi concentration camps were liberated by the WW2 allies, but that was only to illustrate the point of my post, which you obviously missed.

Go back and reread: "Perhaps it was because the USSR was not totally defeated in a bitter world war it had started at the height of their most dastardly acts."

The USSR obviously did not start or prosecute a "bitter world war" therefore did not have their crimes uncovered by a victorious wartime enemy who already had a darn good reason to dislike them intensely.

However, don't you think that if the Soviet gulags or the Katyn forrest had been uncovered in the same manner as the nazi concentration camps and murders were brought to the worlds attention, that world feeling against the Soviets would match that of the nazis as Damo has asked?

The Avon Lady · 09-10-05, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

However, don't you think that if the Soviet gulags or the Katyn forrest had been uncovered in the same manner as the nazi concentration camps and murders were brought to the worlds attention, that world feeling against the Soviets would match that of the nazis as Damo has asked?

No. You know why?

Most of the USSR's citizens were prisoners of their own ideology. The beneficiairies of the Communist system were the 2 legged pigs at the top of the government, military, and industry. The rest of the country were reduced to mostly equivalently unhappy and rights-suppressed underlings.

Not so Nazi Germany! This was a regime democractically elelected and overall lauded by the German people for its racial doctine, laws and policies. A country laughed at the sufferings of others.

Both Hitler and Stalin were beasts. But only one of them truly won the hearts and minds of his countrymen.

August · 09-11-05, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

No. You know why?

Most of the USSR's citizens were prisoners of their own ideology. The beneficiairies of the Communist system were the 2 legged pigs at the top of the government, military, and industry. The rest of the country were reduced to mostly equivalently unhappy and rights-suppressed underlings.

Not so Nazi Germany! This was a regime democractically elelected and overall lauded by the German people for its racial doctine, laws and policies. A country laughed at the sufferings of others.

Both Hitler and Stalin were beasts. But only one of them truly won the hearts and minds of his countrymen.

I disagree.

Stalinist stability is still missed by many older Russians. He was feared yes, but from what i've read he was not hated by the average Russian man in the street of the time, to whom pogroms and repression had always been facts of life.

One must judge the people of those eras by their reality, not ours.

Neither the soviets or the nazis came to power by telling their peoples that they would soon be oppressing and murdering them in wholesale lots, They at least paid lip service to the concept of popular rule and they offered a way out of crushing poverty and oppression. They offered the hope of a better life to desperate people.

We should not underestimate how much of a major improvement this actually was over the systems the two peoples always had lived under. It wasn't until later, with their control over their nations already established, that the true nature of nazism and soviet stalinism became apparent and by then it was too late.

The Avon Lady · 09-11-05, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I disagree.

Stalinist stability is still missed by many older Russians. He was feared yes, but from what i've read he was not hated by the average Russian man in the street of the time, to whom pogroms and repression had always been facts of life.

True and my answer was way simplified.

But the average Ivan ( :P ) admired Stalin for nothing more than that - stability. Yes, there were many true-red Stalinist Communists who admired Stalin as better than Lenin but what they wanted was Communism, whose lurid goal is everyone's the same and we're all one big happy ant colony, even if we only eat straw and stubble.

This is a far cry from Aryan racist national ideology.

Quote:

either the soviets or the nazis came to power by telling their peoples that they would soon be oppressing and murdering them in wholesale lots, They at least paid lip service to the concept of popular rule and they offered a way out of crushing poverty and oppression. They offered the hope of a better life to desperate people.

Mein Kamp was not published in 1941. It was published in 1925 and 1926. Aryan supremist ideology was part and parcel of what Hitler offered his countrymen (and Austria's and then some). He was worshiped for it.

Type941 · 09-11-05, 06:03 AM

You sit in your house, watch some program on Discovery channel about USSR (who prepared it?), take it as the ultimate truth, and pick up a few russian words like 'pogrom' and now think you got the scoop on the whole thing and choose to opine on the issue. It's very typical. Trouble is buddy, you actually don't have a clue because you never lived there!

I grew up in Soviet Union when I was small, I started school when perestroika was in full swing. The only reason why some people want back the USSR is that they forget the problems it had and focus on the social stability it provided. I.e. you go to school, free, always, you get education that's one of the best - your country employs tens of thousands of former USSR specialist in computers and science for example, because your own could never prepare them on such scale - for free, - you get a job and stand 10 years in line for the apartment. Or 1 year.

Also this notion of Party standing over you and always demanding things to be done in some way is more true for Orwell's Animal Farm. Here's an example. My grandfather worked in one of chemical facilities - producing some normal industrial stuff (in mid 60s). The whole emergency and guidance for safety was awful, that's why he always had to look for things himself at that time. When on some shift a guy 'forgot' to do something (or as they call in America, a "human error" which is politically correct for someone f*cked up) a reaction of gas was released into air and was about to blow. My grandfather had to run through the whole damn factory getting everyone out, risking his life. The whole thing blew up in a minute (noone died from 400 people inside). He than had to go to meet with KGB officer and report. He had to go to these meetings almost every week, and keep writing reports. He was getting scared, frustrated and mad on why he was being questioned as criminal for an industrial accident and when everyone in the facility said that thanks to him the whole thing didn't turn out in casulties, including the director of the whole plant. Than he went to his boss and asked what to do. The guy told him - next time you are called in - tell him 'to f*ck off' and leave, don't say anything else. He also said 'This isn't Stalin era anymore, it's not that dangerous, don't worry about these rats'. Next time my gramps was called in, and aked to write more things he said "why don't you f*ck off with all your questions".. To the KGB offficer. Next, he just turned around and left. ... He hasn't heard ANYTHING more from them, ever.

Truth of the matter is that most people had little ability to get out, or let the world know what's going on. But they all between themselves adopted. We were not some pigs at the top, no way, but we had a car, a dacha, big apartment, and none of my grandparents were working in coops, or foreign currency shops. They were in charge of their departments on a factory, had 8 classes of education (because than, war started) and worked hard to achieve all they have. They also raised 2 kids. This was not in Moscow, because those in Moscow had a totally differnt life to smaller province areas. Noone in my family was in KGB, or other stuff like that. All they achieved was through hard work, and we had a good childhood, went to Black Sea every year for 2 months vacation, etc. we haven't been murdering Jews, or jumping enraged on someone who opened a shop somewhere.

LIke I said, you have no clue what you are talking about, and your generalizing is typical of what's wrong with america today. If people like you had your way, you'd put troops everywhere to 'free' people, but problem is you are not free yourself, since you keep thinking in cold war propoganda mentality. It's very ironic and very sad. You can't even speak russian, how can you judge the country so profoundly as you have?

Ignorance is a bliss. Oink.

Sharkstooth · 09-11-05, 06:29 AM

Quote:

You sit in your house, watch some program on Discovery channel about USSR (who prepared it?), take it as the ultimate truth, and pick up a few russian words like 'pogrom' and now think you got the scoop on the whole thing and choose to opine on the issue. It's very typical. Trouble is buddy, you actually don't have a clue because you never lived there!

Funny, those are my same thoughts about the way you view the situation in Iraq, New Orleans .....and just America in general.

Kapitan · 09-11-05, 06:43 AM

hmmmmm :hmm:

TteFAboB · 09-11-05, 08:57 AM

I get it now, Type941's grandfather sabotaged an industrial chemical factory and Type941's now suffers from Stockholm's syndrome and denial. He speaks of "freedom" and "freeing" people because his grandfather was a separatist terrorist who worked to "free" his provincial people.

(Joke alert: The previous line was a joke)

Type941, you say Americans have no clue what they are talking about, but if you looked at the mirror for a second, what do YOU know? You say you grew up in the Soviet Union, what do YOU know about individual responsabilities, individual freedom, individual duty, individual rights, etc. etc..

You don't want people to generalize your Soviet Union but you generalize America and Americans, you spit anti-americanism but you deny the crimes and horrors of the Soviet Union.

Now it's my turn to generalize: While people like you were sitting back home watching the official propaganda channel somebody's else grandfather was passing away in a gulag, gladly people like you would never know, care or bother with it because you would soon be enjoyning a vacation to the black sea, how can a blind man judge anybody ignorant?

Type941 · 09-11-05, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

I get it now, Type941's grandfather sabotaged an industrial chemical factory and Type941's now suffers from Stockholm's syndrome and denial. He speaks of "freedom" and "freeing" people because his grandfather was a separatist terrorist who worked to "free" his provincial people.

(Joke alert: The previous line was a joke)

Grow up.

I lived in USA and USSR so I can compare a little bit. Can't say that about you. And spare me your 'if you aren't with us you're against us' bullcrap, i never 'spewed' any anti-americanism. The fact that I think you have a moron in the office doesn't really mean I hate america. It's only an opinion. However when someone is likening my grandparents and parents to Nazist in germany, you damn right I will respond, even to trolls.

Sharkstooth · 09-11-05, 09:53 AM

Quote:

I lived in USA and USSR so I can compare a little bit.

no, you really can't.

Type941 · 09-11-05, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharkstooth

Quote:

I lived in USA and USSR so I can compare a little bit.

no, you really can't.

good come back! :rotfl:

The Avon Lady · 09-11-05, 10:02 AM

Type941's responses sound reasonable to me. What's wrong with them folks? This is an interesting conversation. Let's not denegrate it.

Sharkstooth · 09-11-05, 10:21 AM

Quote:

The fact that I think you have a moron in the office doesn't really mean I hate america.

What does it really mean? What do you like about America?

August · 09-11-05, 11:57 AM

Type941,

You miss the point, as usual. I was countering AL's comments about how the German people bought into nazisim when the Russian people didn't. I thought it was much to lopsided and sweeping.

In any case you say you grew up in Russia during Perestroyka, so your in your, what, n your mid 20's? Well Sonny i'm old enough to remember the Cuban missle crisis and air raid drills in school. I'm also old enough to have stood watch on the borders of your empire during it's heyday. I'll agree "Soviet Man" was not a viewpoint believed or shared by all in Russia and especially the SSR's, but please don't bore us with your youthfully arrogant view that it never existed at all.

Type941 · 09-11-05, 01:57 PM

so again you attack on personal basis and never bothering to comment on what i said on the issue. Seniority doesn't grant you the right to say that you know better. In fact I believe that it's possible that some younger people would hold a more objective view. Don't cast me aside because I'm in mid 20s, I've graduated university at 19 for example. Age isn't that important. You still can't have a better view on Russia since you never lived there. If you think that's a wrong way to look at things, that's ok, but don't tell me I'm just giving you arrogant bull. All i've been doing thus far is replying to you. In fact I am much less aggrevated with you now that you said how old you are since it makes sense why you would be so much against russia/ussr and all that.

09-11-05, 06:03 AM	#50
Type941 Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: U-52 Posts: 1,270 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	You sit in your house, watch some program on Discovery channel about USSR (who prepared it?), take it as the ultimate truth, and pick up a few russian words like 'pogrom' and now think you got the scoop on the whole thing and choose to opine on the issue. It's very typical. Trouble is buddy, you actually don't have a clue because you never lived there! I grew up in Soviet Union when I was small, I started school when perestroika was in full swing. The only reason why some people want back the USSR is that they forget the problems it had and focus on the social stability it provided. I.e. you go to school, free, always, you get education that's one of the best - your country employs tens of thousands of former USSR specialist in computers and science for example, because your own could never prepare them on such scale - for free, - you get a job and stand 10 years in line for the apartment. Or 1 year. Also this notion of Party standing over you and always demanding things to be done in some way is more true for Orwell's Animal Farm. Here's an example. My grandfather worked in one of chemical facilities - producing some normal industrial stuff (in mid 60s). The whole emergency and guidance for safety was awful, that's why he always had to look for things himself at that time. When on some shift a guy 'forgot' to do something (or as they call in America, a "human error" which is politically correct for someone fcked up) a reaction of gas was released into air and was about to blow. My grandfather had to run through the whole damn factory getting everyone out, risking his life. The whole thing blew up in a minute (noone died from 400 people inside). He than had to go to meet with KGB officer and report. He had to go to these meetings almost every week, and keep writing reports. He was getting scared, frustrated and mad on why he was being questioned as criminal for an industrial accident and when everyone in the facility said that thanks to him the whole thing didn't turn out in casulties, including the director of the whole plant. Than he went to his boss and asked what to do. The guy told him - next time you are called in - tell him 'to fck off' and leave, don't say anything else. He also said 'This isn't Stalin era anymore, it's not that dangerous, don't worry about these rats'. Next time my gramps was called in, and aked to write more things he said "why don't you f*ck off with all your questions".. To the KGB offficer. Next, he just turned around and left. ... He hasn't heard ANYTHING more from them, ever. Truth of the matter is that most people had little ability to get out, or let the world know what's going on. But they all between themselves adopted. We were not some pigs at the top, no way, but we had a car, a dacha, big apartment, and none of my grandparents were working in coops, or foreign currency shops. They were in charge of their departments on a factory, had 8 classes of education (because than, war started) and worked hard to achieve all they have. They also raised 2 kids. This was not in Moscow, because those in Moscow had a totally differnt life to smaller province areas. Noone in my family was in KGB, or other stuff like that. All they achieved was through hard work, and we had a good childhood, went to Black Sea every year for 2 months vacation, etc. we haven't been murdering Jews, or jumping enraged on someone who opened a shop somewhere. LIke I said, you have no clue what you are talking about, and your generalizing is typical of what's wrong with america today. If people like you had your way, you'd put troops everywhere to 'free' people, but problem is you are not free yourself, since you keep thinking in cold war propoganda mentality. It's very ironic and very sad. You can't even speak russian, how can you judge the country so profoundly as you have? Ignorance is a bliss. Oink. __________________ Sink the Bismarck SH3 Movie

09-11-05, 06:43 AM	#52
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	hmmmmm :hmm: __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

09-11-05, 10:02 AM	#57
The Avon Lady Über Mom Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 6,147 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Type941's responses sound reasonable to me. What's wrong with them folks? This is an interesting conversation. Let's not denegrate it. __________________ "Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women." - Houari Boumedienne, President of Algeria, Speech before the UN, 1974

09-11-05, 11:57 AM	#59
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,213 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Type941, You miss the point, as usual. I was countering AL's comments about how the German people bought into nazisim when the Russian people didn't. I thought it was much to lopsided and sweeping. In any case you say you grew up in Russia during Perestroyka, so your in your, what, n your mid 20's? Well Sonny i'm old enough to remember the Cuban missle crisis and air raid drills in school. I'm also old enough to have stood watch on the borders of your empire during it's heyday. I'll agree "Soviet Man" was not a viewpoint believed or shared by all in Russia and especially the SSR's, but please don't bore us with your youthfully arrogant view that it never existed at all. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

09-11-05, 01:57 PM	#60
Type941 Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: U-52 Posts: 1,270 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	so again you attack on personal basis and never bothering to comment on what i said on the issue. Seniority doesn't grant you the right to say that you know better. In fact I believe that it's possible that some younger people would hold a more objective view. Don't cast me aside because I'm in mid 20s, I've graduated university at 19 for example. Age isn't that important. You still can't have a better view on Russia since you never lived there. If you think that's a wrong way to look at things, that's ok, but don't tell me I'm just giving you arrogant bull. All i've been doing thus far is replying to you. In fact I am much less aggrevated with you now that you said how old you are since it makes sense why you would be so much against russia/ussr and all that. __________________ Sink the Bismarck SH3 Movie

09-11-05, 08:57 AM	#53
TteFAboB Admiral Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,247 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I get it now, Type941's grandfather sabotaged an industrial chemical factory and Type941's now suffers from Stockholm's syndrome and denial. He speaks of "freedom" and "freeing" people because his grandfather was a separatist terrorist who worked to "free" his provincial people. (Joke alert: The previous line was a joke) Type941, you say Americans have no clue what they are talking about, but if you looked at the mirror for a second, what do YOU know? You say you grew up in the Soviet Union, what do YOU know about individual responsabilities, individual freedom, individual duty, individual rights, etc. etc.. You don't want people to generalize your Soviet Union but you generalize America and Americans, you spit anti-americanism but you deny the crimes and horrors of the Soviet Union. Now it's my turn to generalize: While people like you were sitting back home watching the official propaganda channel somebody's else grandfather was passing away in a gulag, gladly people like you would never know, care or bother with it because you would soon be enjoyning a vacation to the black sea, how can a blind man judge anybody ignorant?