iraq a just war?

[August]

Skybird,

The usual attempt to discredit anyone who is against you because he is not with you by insisting on his bad intentions and bad wishings for the worse.

Please don't trot out this phony indignation ploy with me. Besides not being aimed at *you* personally, what i said is nothing compared to the arrogance you display in nearly every post here. Perhaps you think i've forgotten your little German language Disneyland slam when i first came here or your consistant negative stance in all things American. Well, i haven't and you're certainly not doing anything to help it.

You like to call the American people blind and ignorant to the failings to our leaders, yet what you fail to realize is that many of us see people like yourself in the exact same light. Like Bob Marleys Sheriff John Brown, you're far to ready to believe anything that reinforces your preconcieved reality and far too quick to discount as lies and propaganda anything that might challenge it.

Wrong. The assumptions that had been voiced where worded much more precisely, and I'm sure you know that. "Clear and immediate danger". Wrong. " "Possession of B-C-wepaons" Wrong. "Close to A-wepaons". Wrong. "niger deal". Wrong. Mobile wepaoin laboratories. Wrong. "Mases of WMD stored." Wrong. "Missiles reaching london in 30 minutes". Wrong. "Direct links to Al Quaeda". Wrong.

Every one of these issues has an equally strong argument for the opposite viewpoint, (well nearly every one since i've never heard about the London missile thing - meh), so i'm not going to expend the effort to refute your way overly simplistic "Wrong" judgements, item by item. Suffice to say that i disagree with your opinions as much as i disagree with your amazing idea that allowing Saddam to remain in power was better for the Iraqis in the long run.

Violance and terror is spreading both towards North and South. the silence in Basra and British sector seem to be over. Since months Kurdish cities has been attacked, not as often as in the centre of the country, but to say Kurdish territory is pacified is false. Britsh troops oin the south are on higher state of alerts than before. Some months ago there was a discussion if we already have a civil war in Iraq, or if it is close to that. No matter what - a war zone it is - years after Bushs premature victory parade on that carrier. Today violance and death toll in Iraq is higher than it ever were under Saddam, war with Iran excluded. In fact I fail to see the diffrences between between back then and now. Look at the detoriating supply situation with water. Food. Electricity. Living conditionas for many, many people definetly are not better than before - but the opposite.

I will agree that the forces of those who want a divided Iraq, are still both present and active in the country, but from what i hear, mostly from real life guys like the "Sergeant Jim Sixpack" in your example are mostly irritated at what they see as overly negative reporting that distorts the true situation in the country and worry that because of it they'll be pulled out before they can finish the job.

Plenty of voices have told your country in advance that it will come to the results we now see. The warnings of attacking Iraq had been numerous, and liud, and clear. The bad news today is no news at all -it is a consequence that had been forseen by many. So don't complain, and do not shoot the messenger. Start shooting those that brought you into this.

Well thank you very much for your unsolicited opinion. Be assured we won't shoot you for giving it, but don't hold your breath waiting for us to follow your recommendation that we shoot our leaders. We're not going to do it.

Here's an unsolicited bit of advice in return: In America, leader and country had better be one or "we the people" will toss them out on their ears. We're very critical of our leaders and hold their every action up to the public microscope, which may seem odd to an outsider such as yourself, but don't mistake our internal self critique for the idea that we'd ever accept our leaders doing anything but representing the best interests of our nation.

[Type941]

Originally Posted by August

We're very critical of our leaders and hold their every action up to the public microscope,

Oh yes, you are good at that when it comes to certain interns doing blow jobs (should this be ****?) for your president, but when it comes to examening the failures of the law enforcement and intelligence agencies, things just don't go that far. It seems like that to an outsider anyway.

That whole 911 comission was a joke. Especially when it came questioning the key people involved: Oh we do it behind close doors, and only if they agree. haha.

YOU might get an impression people are trying to just put down america, but it's not true - it's just you defending every single thing that Bush did is what keeps bringing me back to this. You refuse to deny his failures. Which are obvious.

[August]

Originally Posted by Type941

'this just in'.

Apparently CNN just filed a lawsuit against the government because the government told them not to show victims' bodies floating in the water. So. Good on them for doing that.

The entire gulf is crowded with news teams both on the ground and in the air. Even with just basic cable i've got 5 channels of 24 hour non stop images (CNN included) from the disaster area, and on top of that every regular news program on the network channels devotes a significant amount of every broadcast in covering the story. Believe me when i say "Bush and CO" or anyone else for that matter could ever conceal the true death toll even if they wanted to, which of course they do not.

I have to ask, why is it so important to you to have closeup images of the victims? Are you keeping a personal count or something? Did you ever think that the families of the victims may not want to see their the bodies of their loved ones plastered on the nightly news and the internet over and over? Don't you have any respect for the dead man?

As for your 10,000 figure you do realize this was basicly a wild guess by the mayor of NO and totally unsupported by any hard data, right? Don't get me wrong, i'm not dismissing his gut feelings given during a very tense time, but so far it looks to be highly exaggerated, and thank God for that.

Make no mistake though. There will eventually be an extremely accurate body count, whatever that number turns out to be.

[August]

Originally Posted by Type941

YOU might get an impression people are trying to just put down america, but it's not true - it's just you defending every single thing that Bush did is what keeps bringing me back to this. You refuse to deny his failures. Which are obvious.

That's not true, you have not asked, nor have i said, what i think Bushes failures are. For one thing I believe his public speaking skills are much too inadequate for a President whose job sometimes requires eloquence.

For another i feel he's far to agreeable to Congressional porkbarrel spending.

On the other hand do i feel he's, to use your word, a "monster"? No i don't and i don't think how you and othersrealize that using similar verbage hurts your whatever valid arguments you might have.

[August]

BTW it never was about what Bill Clinton did to Monica Lewinski, it was that he deliberately lied about it under oath in a court of law. I can forgive the occasional peccadillo, although doing it in the oval office was kind of insulting to it's owners, but i will not stand for him self righteously wagging his finger on national TV while lying to our faces.

[Skybird]

Typed a longer reply and deleted it again. It's hopeless, and ignorrant self-justification and blaming the others for one's own blindness has become part of American national self-perception, I'm sorry to say. I think america never saw any need to question itself, and it never has, if I think of it. I just wished we wouldn't be effected by this country so much. For the time beeing I keep my memories of American friends that I knew, and perception of the country's reality now strictly separate, to avoid doing unjustice to those that I knew. Although you gave the impression to the world that I think of all Americans as idiots, I do not.

Simple fact is, August, you will never be willing to see how far your nation's political status and procedures have fallen apart from what your founding fathers wanted it to be. You, like many of your countrymen, still think that the ideals of the past and the status of the present are still one and the same. But in the times since WWII ended a growing part of mankind happens to disagree with that assessement more and more. Some people even fell victim to the more obvious acts of perversion of american ideals, like Vietnam, or now Iraq. The ideas from over twohundred years ago (prepared by French forethinkers that were discussed in the salons on the eastcoast, leading to the american revolution, that in some strange kind of a feedback thanked France's philosophers by igniting the revolution in France) were great, and worth to be an example for others - as they actually have been for a long time. If it still would be like in those days, I even would think to live in your country myself. But with time they were hollowed out, financial elites have taken over and are the the prime determinant of your nation'S policies now, and the vocabulary of these ideals is only a tool that since long has lost most of it's original meaning. You, like many of your countrymen, refuse to open your eyes to that as long as you have a good life by the status quo and your hunger for ideals is feeded with word-shelling by your leaders. It could be of zero interest for us, if we were not so massvely effected by even your "innerpolitical" events, unfortunately. For that reason I dare say the average European knows more about American inner politics than the average American knows about inner politics in let's say Germany, or Luthenia, or Denmark ("exceptions just proove the general rule"). America is like a huge tree that still looks healthy from outside, but under the skin is rotten.

Not much different with European democracies, at least that I admit.

BTW, in Europe we have had our experiences with making "leader" and "country" one and the same. And they were not good. A soldier making a vow on his people and country is one thing. Swear him in on one single person is something very different. L'etat c'est moi - not with me, if this would happen in Germany, I would be willing to think about no longer unarmed resistance. And if "putting your leaders under the microscope of your public" leads to such formidable results as the phenomenon Bush, than you must excuse that the vast majority of the rest of the world has massive doubts in the convincing power of this statement you made so proudly.

[August]

Think what you like Skybird. Our troops do not, and never have throughout our history, sworn allegience to any single man. Unlike your nation i might mention, who only recently have stopped doing exactly that like they have since Germania was run by the Romans.

If, as you say, the rest of the world doubts America, then i'll just respond by saying that this is certainly nothing new. The rest of the world has been forecasting our nations imminent demise and underestimating our people since 1776. You'll forgive us if we tend to take your advice on how to run our country with at least a little tiny grain of salt.

After all, in spite of all those oh so reasoned prognostications of doom y'all have been thowing our way for the past 230 years or so, we're still here, and i'm betting we will be long after you and i are dust.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by August

BTW it never was about what Bill Clinton did to Monica Lewinski, it was that he deliberately lied about it under oath in a court of law. I can forgive the occasional peccadillo, although doing it in the oval office was kind of insulting to it's owners, but i will not stand for him self righteously wagging his finger on national TV while lying to our faces.

I agree with that.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Typed a longer reply and deleted it again. It's hopeless, and ignorrant self-justification and blaming the others for one's own blindness has become part of American national self-perception, I'm sorry to say. I think america never saw any need to question itself, and it never has, if I think of it. I just wished we wouldn't be effected by this country so much. For the time beeing I keep my memories of American friends that I knew, and perception of the country's reality now strictly separate, to avoid doing unjustice to those that I knew. Although you gave the impression to the world that I think of all Americans as idiots, I do not.

Simple fact is, August, you will never be willing to see how far your nation's political status and procedures have fallen apart from what your founding fathers wanted it to be. You, like many of your countrymen, still think that the ideals of the past and the status of the present are still one and the same. But in the times since WWII ended a growing part of mankind happens to disagree with that assessement more and more. Some people even fell victim to the more obvious acts of perversion of american ideals, like Vietnam, or now Iraq. The ideas from over twohundred years ago (prepared by French forethinkers that were discussed in the salons on the eastcoast, leading to the american revolution, that in some strange kind of a feedback thanked France's philosophers by igniting the revolution in France) were great, and worth to be an example for others - as they actually have been for a long time. If it still would be like in those days, I even would think to live in your country myself. But with time they were hollowed out, financial elites have taken over and are the the prime determinant of your nation'S policies now, and the vocabulary of these ideals is only a tool that since long has lost most of it's original meaning. You, like many of your countrymen, refuse to open your eyes to that as long as you have a good life by the status quo and your hunger for ideals is feeded with word-shelling by your leaders. It could be of zero interest for us, if we were not so massvely effected by even your "innerpolitical" events, unfortunately. For that reason I dare say the average European knows more about American inner politics than the average American knows about inner politics in let's say Germany, or Luthenia, or Denmark ("exceptions just proove the general rule"). America is like a huge tree that still looks healthy from outside, but under the skin is rotten.

Not much different with European democracies, at least that I admit.

BTW, in Europe we have had our experiences with making "leader" and "country" one and the same. And they were not good. A soldier making a vow on his people and country is one thing. Swear him in on one single person is something very different. L'etat c'est moi - not with me, if this would happen in Germany, I would be willing to think about no longer unarmed resistance. And if "putting your leaders under the microscope of your public" leads to such formidable results as the phenomenon Bush, than you must excuse that the vast majority of the rest of the world has massive doubts in the convincing power of this statement you made so proudly.

Someday we will achive nothingness as taught by Master Sky. LMAO....Yeeeeeeeeeeep. Haughty lunatic is the words that come to mind when I think of you Skybird.You really believe in your own moral and intellectual superiority...and That's what cracks me up.

Pride cometh before a fall....hope ya got a chute.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Type941

Oh yes, you are good at that when it comes to certain interns doing blow jobs (should this be ****?) for your president, but when it comes to examening the failures of the law enforcement and intelligence agencies, things just don't go that far. It seems like that to an outsider anyway.

That whole 911 comission was a joke. Especially when it came questioning the key people involved: Oh we do it behind close doors, and only if they agree. haha.

EDITED

August, can you give us your opinion on this, please?

[Type941]

Originally Posted by Fish

August, can you give us your opinion on this, please?

Care to read what he said or you want him to qoute HIMSELF again? See previous page..


I've seen everyone putting down skybird for what he said. Eh, everyone from america thus far. Go figure. Such negative responses he gets only means that he's right about something. OK, for him being Germany you want to be skeptical and start throwing the Nazi past mud at him, but that's so unfair and wrong.

Indeed there is a problem. It's a phenomena in general - that americans believe their country is the greatest in the world.

And since indeed all of Europe is unfortunately so greately affected by the US, we have to follow what they say or do because it affects us. Unfortunately, because when things are bad, it affects us, when things are great - it really doesn't do too much good.


BTW, isn't it wierd how russia and germany get along just fine and do a lot of business, regardless of the past? You'd think we should hate each other's guts after ww2.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Type941

Oh yes, you are good at that when it comes to certain interns doing blow jobs (should this be ****?) for your president, but when it comes to examening the failures of the law enforcement and intelligence agencies, things just don't go that far. It seems like that to an outsider anyway.

That whole 911 comission was a joke. Especially when it came questioning the key people involved: Oh we do it behind close doors, and only if they agree. haha...

To be honest, there was a very sound reason for the President not to appear before the Congress.
The US Constitution builds "checks & balances" in the US government. At the highest level the three forces that provide the check & balances are the Supreme Court, the Presidency and the Congress. All of these forces try to maintain their power and if possible gain some on the expense of others.
The Congressional committee had no right to interrogate the President, but was happy to create a precedent.
In the end a compromise was found that did not infringe on the constitutional powers of the President, but gave the Congressional committee all the information it wanted.

[Abraham]

Amougst AAs* it is a well know fact that Bush is responsable for 9/11, if only because otherwise he would have had no reason to start his 'War against Islam', which in turn was only started to enhance the production of Halliburton and the arms industry - but that is a different subject.
The Great Debate is that some AAs believe Bush requested Osama (trained by the CIA!) to send some devote Arabs on a tourist trip to New York and Washington. Other AAs claim that this is far beyond the intellectual capacities of Bush and maintain it was Cheney who dunnit.
Quite an interesting bedate to follow (if you're sick & tired of the violence in SHIII).
History will tell... that it is very difficult to find the truth when you're looking in the wrong direction with drak glasses and both eyes closed!

By the way: one strong argument that is never used by AAs up till now (as far as I know):
President Bush has never openly denied having ordered the 9/11 attacks!
Isn't that suspicious?


* AAs = Anti Americans

[Type941]

** AAs and sane people are not different things all the time.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Type941

'this just in'.

Apparently CNN just filed a lawsuit against the government because the government told them not to show victims' bodies floating in the water. So. Good on them for doing that.

If so, my sources apparently were not so wrong at all.