SSN KURSK was down by US SSN Memphis !!!

[Sea Demon]

Aye, Aye.....Kapitain.

And cheers to you to Bellman.

Sea Demon

[Bellman]

Cheers guys.

Missed the action due to collision with a case of ice-cool 'Export'

[Kapitan]

yep lol my fault on that inccident i saw it the wrong way lol ack well all in the name of sorta wierd fun

[Rip]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Calm down, Kapitain. It was a joke. Don't you see the little jester emoticon next to my statement. It was in response to Bellman's statement that I may be an him/her/it. And I thought that Bellman's reply about me was darn funny. Good one, Bellman. And you Kapitain need to learn to take a joke.

Sea Demon

Oh, yeah, and you seemed to find the jab at me funny to. Are you the type that can only dish it out, and not take it?????

In Russia joke tells you :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

ok

[Perseus]

Unbelievable, the crap you read on this Kursk-thang...

As the man from Mammoet company said, the explosion came from inside-out, not from outside.

What happened was one of the accidents captains fear most: a mishandling of a torpedo, or a torpedo performing a "hot run" inside the boat.

Don't forget, Oscar II boats have a double hull, and even if one torpedo's fuel tank had exploded - without the warhead, which we assume wasn't activated - then, in theory, only the inner hull would most likely have ruptured. Because as the bulkheads were obviously not closed, approximately 30% of the blast would have gone straight through the sub.

As you can see on this photo,



the quite tough metal of the outer hull is blown outwards, not inwards.

On the "myth" of another sub colliding with the Kursk...

Simply do the math.

In order for a submarine collision to do enough damage to set off an explosion, that submare must have made at least 80 knots for its hull to penetrate that of the Kursk, and even then the colliding submarine would never have made it back home - it would have sunk together with the Kursk.

Then look at the location where the Kursk sank - not far from Poliyarni.
Any Russian submariner will tell you that sub drivers like to order drills not long after leaving port - especially torpedo drills.

For many submariners on the Kursk, that fateful tour of duty was their first. Any average Russian submarine captain would have ordered (torpedo) drills as a habit; almost every captain knows that even today, Russian training standards at academies and for non-commissioned sailors are well below Western standards, and so are security levels.

Something went wrong, something inside the Kursk torpedo room, and it caught everyone by surprise. If bulkheads were left open during a drill, which some specialists have said was the case, then that is one hell of a mistake to make, especially because most Russian experienced submarines knew (and know) quite well that their torpedoes are highly unstable.

[Kapitan]

Then look at the location where the Kursk sank - not far from Poliyarni.
Any Russian submariner will tell you that sub drivers like to order drills not long after leaving port - especially torpedo drills.

yes its a big habbit taken from the early days of the cold war when the first to fire was the victor torpedo drills are run daily through every russian submarine even in port on work up exercises

Russian training standards at academies and for non-commissioned sailors are well below Western standards, and so are security levels.

i beg to differ training is acctualy at western standards many of the kursk officers were trained by the british and in fact many sailors and officers do study at british naval academys, while i was in oxford many people i spoke to were russian and were planning a naval carear albeit with the merchant fleets (went to oxford university witha friend for open day last year)

as for security on the bases it is top whack you have to carry a special pass book to even allow you near the bases to get on the book must be stamped and you must be signed in and same goes when you exit
any person found bording a submarine or ship without permission or is acting suspeisiously is stopped if they resist then the marines that patrol the bases can shoot (thier guns are loaded)
security is very tight before you enter any part of the base you are seacrched and put through a metal detector and dogs routinely patrol the base all of which are armed

roughly 45,000 marine personel patrol the bases and around 1/4 of them have dogs on average there is always some one closer than a small run distance from any part of the base air defence is also at top level and ASW and ASuW mesures are also in place
there is even members of the FSB (not officaly recognised) working on the base in some capacity

so security up there is real real tight

Any Russian submariner will tell you that sub drivers like to order drills not long after leaving port - especially torpedo drills.

yes we do i do it on dangerous waters i always make torpedos ready to fire even when im only 30 mins from port it might be a game but there is some seriousness in it all

If bulkheads were left open during a drill, which some specialists have said was the case, then that is one hell of a mistake to make, especially because most Russian experienced submarines knew (and know) quite well that their torpedoes are highly unstable.

standard proceadure is all men to thier compartments then all bulkhead doors close they are not re opend untill the call for battle stations is withdrawn so the kursks bulkhead doors would have been totaly closed it is SOP and with civilian members onboard a proceadure in which would be carryed out to the full for impression

a torpedo was dropped on the queyside just before loading and this is probly the torpedo that malfunctioned

[Nexus7]

As already said, there's a lot of crap being told about this disaster already, also on TV.
So let me add my 2 gramms of crap

On a documentary i saw yesterday, the final resque roughly proceeded as follows:

a. russian resque sub failed to get in position to try to perform a resque. It's been told the russian resque sub was outdated and unsuitable.

b. england toke steps to bring it's ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub on the area.

c. the final resque attempt has not been made by ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub but has been performed by norvegian deep-frogmen witch proceded as follows:

1. With an hammer, knock on the hull in the hope to receive an answer from inside. No answer.
1a. Still doesnt mean there's nobody alive.

2. Open the main "entrance" of the Kursk.
2a. Main entrance is flooded.
2b. Assumption there are no chances left for someone to be still alive inside.

3. Open the internal door.
3a. Quite a quantity of bubbles raises from the internal (there was air )
3b. citation "later on it's been clear that this air was unsuitable for life" (how do they know? they encapsulated that air at the surface for analysis?)


I am probably missing something here

[Perseus]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

As already said, there's a lot of crap being told about this disaster already, also on TV.
So let me add my 2 gramms of crap

On a documentary i saw yesterday, the final resque roughly proceeded as follows:

a. russian resque sub failed to get in position to try to perform a resque. It's been told the russian resque sub was outdated and unsuitable.

b. england toke steps to bring it's ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub on the area.

c. the final resque attempt has not been made by ultra-high-tech-non-plus-ultra-resque-sub but has been performed by norvegian deep-frogmen witch proceded as follows:

1. With an hammer, knock on the hull in the hope to receive an answer from inside. No answer.
1a. Still doesnt mean there's nobody alive.

2. Open the main "entrance" of the Kursk.
2a. Main entrance is flooded.
2b. Assumption there are no chances left for someone to be still alive inside.

3. Open the internal door.
3a. Quite a quantity of bubbles raises from the internal (there was air )
3b. citation "later on it's been clear that this air was unsuitable for life" (how do they know? they encapsulated that air at the surface for analysis?)


I am probably missing something here

Yip you are

The bubbles weren't air but carbon monoxide. After spending hours in compartment 9, lieutenant Koliasnov decided that the filters in the air refreshing apparatus had to be replaced. These filters were made of a chemical and one of the submariners accidently dropped one of the filters into a bucket filled with generator fuel. The ensuing explosion killed at least 5 ppl instantly and consumed all remaining oxygen, leaving the others to die slowly and painfully.

[Perseus]

so security up there is real real tight

Sorry, was real tired yesterday, didn't mean security but safety.

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Perseus

The bubbles weren't air but carbon monoxide. After spending hours in compartment 9, lieutenant Koliasnov decided that the filters in the air refreshing apparatus had to be replaced. These filters were made of a chemical and one of the submariners accidently dropped one of the filters into a bucket filled with generator fuel. The ensuing explosion killed at least 5 ppl instantly and consumed all remaining oxygen, leaving the others to die slowly and painfully.

:hmm: filters... bucket with fuel... explosion.... carbon monoxide........ logical sequence for sure!

But how could they figure from the external? Did they know that?

blub blub blub blub blub blub

[Kapitan]

because there was still trapped pokets of air inside the submarine even after the hatch was open

not to mention the fact the submarine was knee deep in water as well when the second explosion took place so it added to the already hard conditions

the air was tested after it was collected from inside the submarine its like when you throw a flat flanne into the bath water there is nearly always a little buble of air that purtrudes its the same thing

[Perseus]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

:hmm: filters... bucket with fuel... explosion.... carbon monoxide........ logical sequence for sure!

But how could they figure from the external? Did they know that?

blub blub blub blub blub blub

Well they actually didn't need to catch carbon monoxide bubbles, the scorchmarks in compartment 9 and the burned bodies of those killed by the explosion were tell-tale signs of what had happened. Sad, sad story, though, because this lieutenant Koliasnov kept trying to reach other compartments via the intercom, which was running on its own, undamaged generator, but to no avail.

By the way, post mortem examination of the bodies in compartment 9 also showed lethal concentrations of carbon monoxide in muscles, plasma and organs.

What always did strike me as 'odd' was that, right after the two explosions which essentially ripped open the entire bow, the officers in the command room apparently had the time to order an emergency blow. Unfortunately, of course, there was no use for that as the water rushed in so incredibly fast that the ballast tanks couldn't make a difference anymore.

But that emergency order must have been given FAST.

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Perseus

By the way, post mortem examination of the bodies in compartment 9 also showed lethal concentrations of carbon monoxide in muscles, plasma and organs.

OK on the afterward examinations, but what I was rather asking is: how did the resque team know there was no life inside anymore? When did they 'give the hope up' ?

What i saw in the documentary is that being flooded the entry, they assumed the whole compartment was flooded, witch apparently was a false deduction...

[Kapitan]

the interconecting chamber was flooded which tells you that the compartment presure is equal to the outside presure thats why the milk wasnt sucked in it just stayed there

after 8 days i think every one gave up i doubt no one could survive for longer thana day or two especialy since the compartment was flooding all the time and pressure rising

what you saw when the air rushed out was carbon monoxide it was just trapped pockets nothing else if the whole compartment wasnt flooded then there would be a suction and it would probly have pulled the divers in to the submarine