U-Boat Ops mod? - Page 4

pampanito · 07-14-05, 02:43 PM

Concerning the friendly harbour traffic issue...
If it's of interest for anyone, the following German vessels were in the base of Saint Nazaire when British commandos made a raid on it on 28 March 1942:

- 5th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla, with four MÃ¶we-class TBs
- 16th Minesweeper Flotilla, with two large and three auxiliary m/sw
- 42th Minesweeper Flotilla, with five auxiliary m/sw
- four harbour defense boats (Hafenschutzboote)
- auxiliary minelayer PASSAT (a captured Norwegian tanker)
- tanker SCHLEDSTADT
- flak ship SPERRBRECHER 137
- one tanker under repair (in dry dock)
- six tugs

And, of course, the nine U-boats inside the U-boat pens.

Cheers!

Catfish · 07-14-05, 02:52 PM

Err,
just forgot to include what i really wanted to say

Let me say i like RUB very much, because immersion and realism is a number 1 factor for me. And that is exactly what i like about the harbour traffic mod.

Certainly the German navy did not have a navy fleet comparable to England, but then there were few battleships (two, that is), those "pocket battleships", a few cruisers, more than 40 destroyers (losing around ten in Norway, ok), numerous minesweepers and hundreds of U-boat-accompanying "mine-breakers" (mostly former civilian fishing boats, tenders, small freighters etc. stuffed with empty casks), fitted with AA guns up to their teeth, escorting U-boats in and out of ports. As well there were fleets of civilian fishing boats, and there was always more than one U-boat in the french harbours, let alone Bergen, W'haven etc.. - you simply would see friendly warriors and civilian traffic in the harbours if you weren't blind.

On almost all photos of the time there are several U-boats to be seen, lying in packs, lying one by one in those pens, 2-4 in a lock waiting to catch the tide, 3-4 along a quay in the winter in the baltic sea, and lots of accompanying shipping. You have to imagine the german merchant fleet as well as the navy ships were caged in the harbours, and you would see more of them here than elsewhere. Some twenty harbours controlled by Germany - and how much ships in it?

So when we call for realism, we should look for how it was, and not how someone thinks it was - no harsh critic, you just cannot know all books, photos etc..

The argument "i want to run and gun without friendly or whatever ships in my way" is certainly understandable, but it fails for me because of this immersion and reality factor mentioned above. If a U-boat commander cursed because of all those ******* fishing boats he had to evade, on the other hand using them to hide, or waiting for the escort at the meeting point under a cloudy sky where a plane could attack at every second ... nope, it's harbour traffic for me.

OMG, and the deck gun, yes ....

The deck gun is one example i personally hate. I understand the urge for realism, and the way you can sink ships with it in the original game is just overrated. It seems not to be possible to mod the deck gun in a way it is less exact, or less deadly, so the "reduced deck gun frequency mod" in RUB 1.42 may then reflect reality as a whole, but the sluggish reloading does not look or feel real.
So maybe we can increase the time to get the deck gun ready ? Witnesses tell the 8.8 would be ready to fire in a minute after surfacing.
Shot frequency too high ?
All statistics reflect a frequency of 15 to 18 shots per minute with a trained crew (already found three websites and Busch's book on the U-boat war - 15 to 18 shots, depends on the author).

A rapid fire gun with that frequency to be reduced to (less) than a shot per minute ... take a look at british submarines and their shot frequency - and their guns were not too sophisticated in comparison to the german 8.8. I'm currently looking for evidence in books and the web - i will post all i find about it here.

I do not know why witnesses and statistics talk of 15 shots if they could not be reached in reality ? All overrated ? I sometimes get the impression we modern people probably do not credit the sailors with what they were obviously able to accomplish in those times.

Greetings,
Catfish

CCIP · 07-14-05, 03:12 PM

Not that again...

(ah well, you know you always have my mod if you don't like RUb's gun)

That's the short-term rate of fire. This could, of course, be achieved, but only with a fresh crew and with ready-use ammunition aboard. In other words, for the first minute or so.

Considering the ready-use ammunition cannot possibly be enough to destroy a ship, any gun attack should be considered a long-term attack. And that's where the rate of fire will, by any measure, drop to actually even less than 1 RPM. There's indications it would actually be closer to 1 round every 80 seconds, if you stretched the attack over 2+ hours time.

Catfish · 07-14-05, 03:33 PM

Hello CCIP,
i do use your deck gun mod

I do not talk about an undamaged C2 and gunning it down in 24 hours. I speak of an already damaged freighter left behind, convoy, night, 1941. Blow ballast, man the deck gun and pump 10-12 shots in it, go to flank and head out of the convoy by 90 degrees, only submerging if a warship spots you. Short decisive attack and follow the convoy to overtake, run. Not possible with RUB 1.42 deck gun, it'd take ten minutes to fire ten shells

Greetings,
Catfish

KodiakPA · 07-18-05, 01:55 PM

To each their gaming own.

dize · 07-20-05, 07:45 AM

woop woop!
little child on the backseat of ur car: "are we there yet?!?!"

CCIP · 07-20-05, 11:15 AM

We're at alpha 2 - it's on my system and purring along nicely. There's a few obvious glitches here and there though (like certain cities being neutral or enemy at wrong times), and we're still waiting on a few historical scripted operations to be completed. Otherwise, it's getting closer. I guess just the fact that I can actually play normal patrols with it is a great sign already

Egan · 07-20-05, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dize

woop woop!
little child on the backseat of ur car: "are we there yet?!?!"

Soon, Soon.

I'll say this much; it's not finished yet and it is only the first stage of what we have planned but it is pretty good fun....and pretty hard.

baxter · 07-20-05, 07:18 PM

Its good to get an update...thanks. I think this is going to be well worth waiting for!

Lanzfeld · 07-21-05, 08:47 AM

This will have improved convoys in it right?

Lanzfeld · 07-21-05, 08:47 AM

This will have improved convoys in it right?

CCIP · 07-21-05, 09:34 AM

Yes yes. Improved Convoys is indeed part of the whole affair

NZ_Wanderer · 07-22-05, 12:52 AM

And people like me will still be able to leave some things out like I used to?? :P :P

CCIP · 07-22-05, 09:13 AM

What do you mean by that? It's a campaign mod so... it's a campaign mod. You either have it or you don't

Egan · 07-22-05, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ_Wanderer

And people like me will still be able to leave some things out like I used to?? :P :P

Like what?

this is not going to be so easily 'Moddable' as RUB. There is a lot of interconectivity in this - edit something and you stand a good chance of screwing something up.

EG: Changing or removing some of the files to do with aircover may result in the planes going weird - that sort of thing.

Like CCIP said, it is a campaign mod that is aimed at realism....

And before anyone asks:

NO, IT WILL NOT BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE SEAWOLVES ADD-ON PACK THING...

:P :rotfl:

07-14-05, 03:12 PM	#48
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Not that again... (ah well, you know you always have my mod if you don't like RUb's gun) That's the short-term rate of fire. This could, of course, be achieved, but only with a fresh crew and with ready-use ammunition aboard. In other words, for the first minute or so. Considering the ready-use ammunition cannot possibly be enough to destroy a ship, any gun attack should be considered a long-term attack. And that's where the rate of fire will, by any measure, drop to actually even less than 1 RPM. There's indications it would actually be closer to 1 round every 80 seconds, if you stretched the attack over 2+ hours time. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-18-05, 01:55 PM	#50
KodiakPA Gunner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Patroling Puget Sound Posts: 95 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	To each their gaming own. __________________ "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so...very...pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die." -Mal - Firefly

07-20-05, 11:15 AM	#52
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	We're at alpha 2 - it's on my system and purring along nicely. There's a few obvious glitches here and there though (like certain cities being neutral or enemy at wrong times), and we're still waiting on a few historical scripted operations to be completed. Otherwise, it's getting closer. I guess just the fact that I can actually play normal patrols with it is a great sign already __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-21-05, 09:34 AM	#57
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Yes yes. Improved Convoys is indeed part of the whole affair __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-22-05, 09:13 AM	#59
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	What do you mean by that? It's a campaign mod so... it's a campaign mod. You either have it or you don't __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-14-05, 02:43 PM	#46
pampanito Mate Join Date: May 2005 Location: Spain Posts: 59 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Concerning the friendly harbour traffic issue... If it's of interest for anyone, the following German vessels were in the base of Saint Nazaire when British commandos made a raid on it on 28 March 1942: - 5th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla, with four MÃ¶we-class TBs - 16th Minesweeper Flotilla, with two large and three auxiliary m/sw - 42th Minesweeper Flotilla, with five auxiliary m/sw - four harbour defense boats (Hafenschutzboote) - auxiliary minelayer PASSAT (a captured Norwegian tanker) - tanker SCHLEDSTADT - flak ship SPERRBRECHER 137 - one tanker under repair (in dry dock) - six tugs And, of course, the nine U-boats inside the U-boat pens. Cheers!

07-14-05, 02:52 PM	#47
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Err, just forgot to include what i really wanted to say Let me say i like RUB very much, because immersion and realism is a number 1 factor for me. And that is exactly what i like about the harbour traffic mod. Certainly the German navy did not have a navy fleet comparable to England, but then there were few battleships (two, that is), those "pocket battleships", a few cruisers, more than 40 destroyers (losing around ten in Norway, ok), numerous minesweepers and hundreds of U-boat-accompanying "mine-breakers" (mostly former civilian fishing boats, tenders, small freighters etc. stuffed with empty casks), fitted with AA guns up to their teeth, escorting U-boats in and out of ports. As well there were fleets of civilian fishing boats, and there was always more than one U-boat in the french harbours, let alone Bergen, W'haven etc.. - you simply would see friendly warriors and civilian traffic in the harbours if you weren't blind. On almost all photos of the time there are several U-boats to be seen, lying in packs, lying one by one in those pens, 2-4 in a lock waiting to catch the tide, 3-4 along a quay in the winter in the baltic sea, and lots of accompanying shipping. You have to imagine the german merchant fleet as well as the navy ships were caged in the harbours, and you would see more of them here than elsewhere. Some twenty harbours controlled by Germany - and how much ships in it? So when we call for realism, we should look for how it was, and not how someone thinks it was - no harsh critic, you just cannot know all books, photos etc.. The argument "i want to run and gun without friendly or whatever ships in my way" is certainly understandable, but it fails for me because of this immersion and reality factor mentioned above. If a U-boat commander cursed because of all those ******* fishing boats he had to evade, on the other hand using them to hide, or waiting for the escort at the meeting point under a cloudy sky where a plane could attack at every second ... nope, it's harbour traffic for me. OMG, and the deck gun, yes .... The deck gun is one example i personally hate. I understand the urge for realism, and the way you can sink ships with it in the original game is just overrated. It seems not to be possible to mod the deck gun in a way it is less exact, or less deadly, so the "reduced deck gun frequency mod" in RUB 1.42 may then reflect reality as a whole, but the sluggish reloading does not look or feel real. So maybe we can increase the time to get the deck gun ready ? Witnesses tell the 8.8 would be ready to fire in a minute after surfacing. Shot frequency too high ? All statistics reflect a frequency of 15 to 18 shots per minute with a trained crew (already found three websites and Busch's book on the U-boat war - 15 to 18 shots, depends on the author). A rapid fire gun with that frequency to be reduced to (less) than a shot per minute ... take a look at british submarines and their shot frequency - and their guns were not too sophisticated in comparison to the german 8.8. I'm currently looking for evidence in books and the web - i will post all i find about it here. I do not know why witnesses and statistics talk of 15 shots if they could not be reached in reality ? All overrated ? I sometimes get the impression we modern people probably do not credit the sailors with what they were obviously able to accomplish in those times. Greetings, Catfish

07-14-05, 03:33 PM	#49
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello CCIP, i do use your deck gun mod I do not talk about an undamaged C2 and gunning it down in 24 hours. I speak of an already damaged freighter left behind, convoy, night, 1941. Blow ballast, man the deck gun and pump 10-12 shots in it, go to flank and head out of the convoy by 90 degrees, only submerging if a warship spots you. Short decisive attack and follow the convoy to overtake, run. Not possible with RUB 1.42 deck gun, it'd take ten minutes to fire ten shells Greetings, Catfish

07-20-05, 07:45 AM	#51
dize Machinist's Mate Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: hamburg Posts: 122 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	woop woop! little child on the backseat of ur car: "are we there yet?!?!"

07-20-05, 07:18 PM	#54
baxter 中国水兵 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New York Posts: 282 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Its good to get an update...thanks. I think this is going to be well worth waiting for!

07-21-05, 08:47 AM	#55
Lanzfeld Grey Wolf Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Tripoli, PA Posts: 994 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	This will have improved convoys in it right?

07-22-05, 12:52 AM	#58
NZ_Wanderer Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 127 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	And people like me will still be able to leave some things out like I used to?? :P :P