Turkey shoots down Russian aircraft.

[Admiral Halsey]

Has Russia given up on its ambitions for control of the Dardanelles?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Well my wife is really peed off....She thinks Russia is going to smack down a Turkish plane when they get half the chance.

I wonder how this will affect my upcoming trip to Moscow at the new year.

Well, if that happens, I doubt it will end there.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So yeah, I think that there will be a response and it will most likely take the form of a Turksih F16 going down in flames the next time it tries to cross the Syrian border. Turkey won't be able to pull Article 5 on it because it took place in Syria, and so Russia will get its revenge and not start a war between Russia and NATO.

Heard an expert saying something like what you wrote. I heard it about 30 minutes ago on a Danish News channel

Does Turkey know this and will they(turkish AF) stay put the next couple of month to prevent this and will the Kurds take advantage of this new situation ?

Markus

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Unfortunately on a legal stand-point we can't really kick Turkey out of NATO for this, but we can hang them out to dry in this case and let Russia know in an unofficial matter that we do not support Turkeys actions.

Knowing the brain dead windbags in Brussels and Nato they will do the exact opposite and support Turkey just to pee off Putin because.....well....we always did that...can't change old games now, can we?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Knowing the brain dead windbags in Brussels and Nato they will do the exact opposite and support Turkey just to pee off Putin because.....well....we always did that...can't change old games now, can we?

Like it or not Turkey is strategically relevant to NATO and NATO interests, heck we station nukes there once upon a time to annoy Krushchev at his dacha. So, there we are and technically Turkey hasn't done anything that it wasn't already promising it would do after the last couple of Russian airspace intrusions. In the big picture it's stupid because rather than squabbling with each other we should be looking to put down Daesh, but every player in this game has their own agenda so getting some sort of unity was always going to be a difficult task. That brief spark of global unity seen after Paris, I think it will be difficult to rekindle that.

But yes, I think Xabbas wife is right, the next time a Turkish fighter crosses into Syria it will be fired upon, even if it just crosses over the border for a second, and neither side has a government that is capable of compromise, the Russians want blood and the Turks are too proud to back down, in their eyes the Russians shouldn't even be there.

Putin isn't stupid though, he won't directly attack Turkish soil, not yet anyway, that might come later after more escalation and even then it would probably be done through direct aid to the PKK and 'little green men' who would start agitating on the Turkish border. To be honest, Moscow is probably already drawing up a plan to put to Assad to help the Kurds deal with the Turkmen forces on the border and agitate into Turkey itself, Assad will probably agree to having a small part of Syria become some sort of semi-independent entity in order to have continued Russian support, and Turkey will be absolutely furious.

[AngusJS]

The Turks repeatedly complained to Russia about it violating Turkey's airspace, as recently as last Friday. It looks like Russia went one too many times to the well, and paid the price.

[ikalugin]

But yes, I think Xabbas wife is right, the next time a Turkish fighter crosses into Syria it will be fired upon, even if it just crosses over the border for a second, and neither side has a government that is capable of compromise, the Russians want blood and the Turks are too proud to back down, in their eyes the Russians shouldn't even be there.

That is what the MoD said more or less - any threats would be destroyed.

[Dmitry Markov]

So the butcher's bill at this moment:

Crew commander of Su-24 killed by those er-r-r "persons" while descending with the parachute.

A Marine shot during rescue operation in one of our helos.

Our and Syrian special forces have rescued navigation officer of Su-24 during 12-hours long operation - he is now alive, safe and more or less unharmed. Thats what our MoD said recently.

[eddie]

I have read the same thing Dmitry, glad they found the second pilot and that he is safe! But your Government has decided to send the S-400 missile system to the airbase there. Turkish jets should stay out of Syrian airspace now,lol


"Russia's defense minister says that Moscow will send its newest anti-aircraft missiles to Syria following Turkey's downing of a Russian warplane on Tuesday.
Russian news agencies on Wednesday quoted Sergei Shoigu as saying that the S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems would be sent to the Hemeimeem air base in the government-controlled area which Moscow uses for its Air Force sorties."

[Dan D]

I heard on the radio that Turkey sees itsself as the protecting power for the Turkmen minority living in Syria.

There have been attacks lately by Assad troops with Russian air support against the Turkmen, who oppose the Assad regime.

A Turkmen leader was quoted saying they could fight Assad's troops successfully like they did in the past but that they can do nothing against the Russian air strikes.

So it seems that Turkey shot down the aircraft to show Russia that it does not tolerate actions against Turkmen in Syria.

Btw, no one seems to care about the Kurdish people in this conflict who live as minorities in Turkey, Syria, Iran and Irak. They are stuck between hammer and amboss.

[Betonov]

I wonder if ikalugin or Dmitri can confirm this, but the rumor us that the Russians set up an always open direct line between Ankara and Russian command (Syria or Moscow, wasn't mentioned), just becasue they knew jets might stray into Turkey. The Turks had a diplomatic way to let the Russian know about airspace breach within minutes.

It's scuttlebutt for now,

[Commander Wallace]

As expected, there have been a number of intelligent , knowledgeable and insightful posts. An overwhelming majority feel that Turkey was wrong in shooting down the Russian aircraft. Without knowing any of the facts, who can say.

With modern avionics, it's doubtful these incursions were the result of pilot or navigational error . Furthermore, operations that close to another country would demand careful planning to avoid entering the airspace of another country.

I did want to point out a few things. Since Sept of this year, Turkey has complained about incursions into it's airspace by Russia and warned them repeatedly. Russia has established a well documented precedence for ignoring The airspace and sovereignty of other countries including Canada, England, Finland, Japan and the U.S.

Russian bombers increase flights near U.S airspace.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ctic/13746681/
Michael Winter, USA TODAY 9:11 p.m. EDT August 7, 2014.


This foray took place around Alaska. U.S fighters frequently escort Russian aircraft out of their airspace



http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1335735
Canadian airspace intrusions. This incursion in Canada was by a Russian Tupolev-160 bomber, the largest supersonic bomber in the world.




Russian Nuclear-Capable Bombers Intercepted near West Coast in Second U.S. Air Defense Zone Intrusion in Two Weeks


http://www.fromthetrenchesworldrepor...wo-weeks/17353








Pictured: The moment RAF jets intercepted Russian bombers flying in British airspace

By Sam Greenhill for the Daily Mail
Updated: 06:56 EST, 25 March 2010

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1260381/RAF-jets-intercept-Russian-bombers-flying-British-airspace.html#ixzz3sSdlmxDH


In this instance, there was a 4 hour standoff with Russian bombers and U.K RAF.


Russian Nuclear-Capable Bombers Intercepted near West Coast in Second U.S. Air Defense Zone Intrusion in Two Weeks

Posted on July 8, 2012 by Admin

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldrepor...wo-weeks/17353


'Unusual' Russian flights concern NATO

By Jamie Crawford, CNN National Security Producer
Updated 12:53 AM ET, Thu October 30, 2014



http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/29/world/...ace/index.html





Is it a coincidence that these incursions were commited against NATO countries ?



These incursions are not just limited to limited to airspace. Consider the fact that the U.K has been actively hunting a Russian sub in Scotland



http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...land-1-3956078


under the circumstances, it would be disingenuous to say that Russia isn't at the very least equally responsible for the events of the last few days.


Lets not forget that Russia has also attacked aircraft that were of civilian registry, not military. This was of course Korean airlines flight 007 destroyed in 1983 in which 269 innocent people were killed on that passenger liner.



http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...y-soviet-union .


Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down Over Donetsk, Ukraine

The passenger airliner was allegedly shot down by an anti-air missile.


By Ankit Panda
July 18, 2014

http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/malay...netsk-ukraine/

MH17 was flying within an established flight corridor as well when it attacked. Again,This was a civilian aircraft, not a military aircraft as was the Russian aircraft lost yesterday.

Quote : Pro-Russia rebels in Donetsk have claimed responsibility for having shot down a military transport plane in the past as well. Igor Strelkov, a leader of the Donetsk separatists, allegedly ordered the attack, thinking the flight was Ukrainian.

I think it's fair to say that other countries in addition to Russia violate each others airspace however I know of no instance where other countries have attacked passenger liners violating it's airspace except Russia. I think it's ridiculous that Russia under the circumstances is downplaying their intrusions into Turkish airspace since they themselves do it with such frequency and are now crying wolf. Russia may have lost 1 pilot yesterday but how many innocent people were lost on the 2 civilian aircraft it has destroyed ? This is not meant to be anti-Russian but I think it's important to keep all of this in perspective when viewing current events.

[August]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

I think it's ridiculous that Russia under the circumstances is downplaying their intrusions into Turkish airspace since they themselves do it with such frequency and are now crying wolf.

My sentiments as well.

[Bilge_Rat]

interview with the surviving crew member:

Captain Konstantin Murakhtin, speaking on Russian television after his rescue, said his plane had not crossed into Turkish airspace and denied that there had been any audio or visual warnings from Turkey. Murakhtin added that he knew the area “like the back of my hand”. He is currently receiving medical treatment but said he wanted to stay in Syria and continue flying missions.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ive-ambassador

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Betonov

I wonder if ikalugin or Dmitri can confirm this, but the rumor us that the Russians set up an always open direct line between Ankara and Russian command (Syria or Moscow, wasn't mentioned), just becasue they knew jets might stray into Turkey. The Turks had a diplomatic way to let the Russian know about airspace breach within minutes.

It's scuttlebutt for now,

Russian MoD claimed that there was a direct line between Turkish Military and our new command center.