How to intercept?

[Zosimus]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

Yup, that is my experience also.

The game becomes much more cerebral and you have to have good spacial awareness in your head as to what is going on.

Instead of spending most of the game on the map screen, I spend most of it on the bridge, at the UZO, or at the periscope.

Steve

Well, if that's your thing, go for it.

Today I was sailing through the rain with 15 m/s winds and I noticed that I couldn't make better than 2 knots. The engines just couldn't run with that much water, so I submerged to wait it out. I immediately got a hydrophone contact–merchant closing. So I turned towards it at slow speed and put a little circle around it. A few minutes later I got a hydrophone update and calculated that it's course would take it within 1 km of my position. While I don't usually engage ships in the rain, I figured I owed it to him.

So I waited until the next hydrophone update and started the clock. Six minutes 29 seconds later I noted 1.8 covered. At 9:43 I noted 2.7 covered. Speed: 9 knots, course... 61º give or take.

So I set up the shot. The range was the only missing variable but in that kind of rain you need to be close so I aimed for 500 meters and waited submerged. I could see it getting closer on the hydrophone and so I set up the TDC. AOB 90º starboard, bearing 0º, speed 9 knots, range 500 m. My finger was hovering over the back full button, as in my experience the ships are always closer than the hydrophone guy says, but to my surprise the ship was a little further away, but still in easy visual range. Smokestack in the middle. So I locked the scope on and waited until the gyroangle changed. Then I started the timer. It took 8 seconds to go to the next gyroangle so I waited until it clicked to the next one, counted:

thousand one
thousand two
thousand three
thousand four... LOS!

You see, I have this theory that if you shoot at the ship when the gyroangle has just clicked over that the torpedo will tend to hit the ship at the bow whereas if you wait until it's almost ready to click to the next angle you'll hit it more towards the back. So 4 seconds should be exactly in the middle.

Less than a minute later the torpedo hit the ship just a hair behind the smokestack, and I called ahead slow, heading 61º but within a minute the sonar operator lost hydroscope contact. That must mean no propeller movement. So scope back up! Auto contact update guy, update the map!

Except he didn't.

So I sighed and went to the scope, found the foundering ship, clicked lock, and handed the observation scope to the weapons officer.

"Ach du heiliger Strohsack, Herr Kaleun! Es ist ein Schiff dort drüben!" he cried.

Yes, dumb ass, we torpedoed it about 4 minutes ago. Now put it on the map!

And so armed with this information I calculated a 5-waypoint path to put me on the far side of the ship facing it broadside. It didn't exactly work out as I'd hoped, but I wasn't more than 10 degrees off, so good enough. I peered through the scope at it and realized that I had another 2-3 hours to wait so I amused myself by trying to do all those things you apparently do when you're trying to sink a ship. I hit N, went to the book, and tried to ID the ship. The fourth time through the list of ships I decided that it had to be a small cargo ship. It bore very little resemblance to the picture in the book, but what else could it be? What's the next step? Range? How does that work... click here... that did nothing... click there... no... click over there? Yes, that did something... what in the hell am I looking at? Oh, wait... it wants me to... no, it doesn't... okay now I see. I can lower the little line to the waterline if I have the mast up. Okay well how do I cancel this thing? There, that seems to have done it. Range 2900. No, not even close. Okay, line up the mast... and click the thing... it sure is bouncing a lot in the wind... well, lower the thing... right around there. Range 842! Wow, that's precise! Let me check that against the map... no, the range is right around 600. So it's 40 percent off. Oh well, range doesn't matter right? What's next? Angle on bow? Well, it's probably 80ish. Let's roll with that. What happened? 77. Okay, well, close enough. Now what? Eyeball for speed? Okay, let's eyeball it. (singing jeopardy song). Long enough. Speed: 0 knots. I already knew that.

Then it suddenly occurred to me that I'd already torpedoed the ship without doing any of that and without using map updates to follow the little ship picture across the screen.

How long have I taken? Fifty minutes! I'm bored! Let's speed time up. 32x? No, scope down... okay now I can go 1024x... okay three hours! Scope up! Still there? I knew it. Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted... BLOW BALLAST! Man the deck gun! What's that you say? Abner es regnet? Yes, I know it's raining. I modded the sub file so that you can... what's that you say? Oh, only in high winds? But not in rain? Well, all right. Scope depth then... scope down... let's give it another 4 hours... scope up. Ship still there? Still raining? Another 4 hours... scope up... not raining? Good! Blow ballast! What's that? Yes, I know I can just call surface the boat, but I like blowing ballast at times like this. I get to the surface faster. Okay, you're right–it's not really faster but, it feels more impressive. Okay what's the wind speed? 7 knots. Man the deck gun! Fire at will!

Blub, blub, blub...

Have you loaded that torpedo yet? No? Why the hell not? Silent running? Oh yes, you're right... my bad... it's off now so load me a torpedo please. Head back on patrol men... one-third speed.

[maillemaker]

Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted.

Yes, they can, and they do. It's just not common.

About 25% of the time when I hit a ship in convoy it explodes with a single hit.

Not sure about singles.

But they can and do not only sink, but explode violently, from a single hit.

Most of the time it takes 2.

Steve

[Zosimus]

Why don't the ships look like the pictures in the book?

[banryu79]

Nice AAR Zosimus, I enjoyed it!
And impressive shot with only hydrophone data, I still have to try to do something like it!

Btw, I want to comment on this, since it looks like is a sort of obsession for you:

Originally Posted by Zosimus

...
Scope up! Still there? I knew it. Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted... BLOW BALLAST! Man the deck gun!
...

I keep very detailled patrol diaries in hand-write form of my patrols, and I do an end summary detailing each single ship sunken along with all data pertinent to the sunk event (# and type of eels fired, hit and misses, day or night surface or sub attack, etc...)

I have data for two patrols I made with my first character Oberlutenant z. S. Lothar Prochnow (1939, Type VIIB)

Of 13 ships sunk in his first patrol, let's consider only the 8 engaged with eels (5 sunked by gunfire only):

1) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (7h, day)
2) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h, night)
3) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (5h, night)
4) Small Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (4h46m, night)
5) Ore Carrier, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h30m, night)
6) Large Tanker, 2 eels fired, 2 hits, sunk (4h30m, night)
7) Ore Carrier, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (day)
8) Nipwan Park-Type Tanker, 1 eel fired, missed, gunfire, sunk (5h, day)

And for his second patrol 15 ships sunk, 10 engaged with eels:

1) Passenger Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (1h45m, day)
2) Medium Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (3h30m)
3) Large Merchant, 2 eels fired, 2 hits, sunk (2h)
4) Small Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (2h45m, day)
5) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)
6) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)
7) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (7h, day)
8) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (day)
9) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)
10) Small Merchant, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)

So I think this authorize me at least in some way to say that with my mod soup I routinely can sunk ships with 1 eel.

Btw my mod soup is based on GWX but also include all the followings:

Thomsen's Sound Pack V3.2cg
GWX - Enhanced Damage Effects
GWX - Main movie - 'Das Boot'
GWX - No Medals on Crew
LifeBoats&Debris_v4
Flags_enlighten
TMTv2+ThomsensShips v4.4 for GWX3+Xtra ships
TheDarkWraith_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_4_SH3
MaGui F
TorpedoSolutionButton for MaGui F (NYGM-GWX-WAC)
M.E.P v4.2
M.E.P v4.2 to v4.3
Optional - FSF for MEP v4.2
Optional - ShipVanishingHull for MEP v4.3
M.E.P v4.2 - VisualSensors for GWX3
Moon_light_mod
Officer 3D icons
OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams for GWX3
Das Boot Clothes
Johnfb Crew Management and Officer Icons
Johnfb's Sepia toned crew managment
EnvSimAct_Stiebler
Q Ship mod GWX3.0

I suspect the mods highlighted in bold have something to do with it, maybe you could consider them for inclusion too?

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted...

I'm the "other guy", with nine years of playing the game behind me.

Let's see, my last career, which lasted only 49 days of wartime patrol.... sank 19 ships for 132K. For 19 ships, I used 23 torpedoes. I used two on an auxiliary cruiser, flubbed two with no detonation and had to reapproach, and threw away one in a bad snapshot.

But every ship that I hit, except the Aux Cruiser (where I fired two from the get go), went down with one shot. And we didn't load the deck gun during the entire career.

Was this better than average? Sure; I would have expected to have made a couple of "second shots," either out of necessity or expediency. The next career might be far different.

But I will say that my first thought is "Oh, are you kidding me?" when any merchant under, say, 15K tons requires more than one torpedo to go down.

[Zosimus]

Originally Posted by banryu79

Nice AAR Zosimus, I enjoyed it!
And impressive shot with only hydrophone data, I still have to try to do something like it!

Btw, I want to comment on this, since it looks like is a sort of obsession for you:

I keep very detailled patrol diaries in hand-write form of my patrols, and I do an end summary detailing each single ship sunken along with all data pertinent to the sunk event (# and type of eels fired, hit and misses, day or night surface or sub attack, etc...)

I have data for two patrols I made with my first character Oberlutenant z. S. Lothar Prochnow (1939, Type VIIB)

Of 13 ships sunk in his first patrol, let's consider only the 8 engaged with eels (5 sunked by gunfire only):

And for his second patrol 15 ships sunk, 10 engaged with eels:

So I think this authorize me at least in some way to say that with my mod soup I routinely can sunk ships with 1 eel.

Btw my mod soup is based on GWX but also include all the followings:


I suspect the mods highlighted in bold have something to do with it, maybe you could consider them for inclusion too?

Thanks. I'll look into the mod.

Meanwhile, I think we have a difference in our accounting procedures.

1) Passenger Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (1h45m, day)

If you added gunfire, then it didn't sink with a torpedo. 0-1

2) Medium Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (3h30m)

¡Sí vale! 1-1

3) Large Merchant, 2 eels fired, 2 hits, sunk (2h)

No vale. 1-2

4) Small Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (2h45m, day)

No vale. 1-3

5) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)

No vale. 1-4

6) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)

Vale. 2-4

7) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (7h, day)

Vale. 3-4

8) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (day)

Vale. 4-4

9) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)

Vale. 5-4

10) Small Merchant, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)

No vale. 5-5

Accordingly I conclude, based on your data, that 50 percent of the ships you hit went down on the power of a torpedo. That's very good. The mod must be helping you a lot.

[maillemaker]

I suspect the mods highlighted in bold have something to do with it, maybe you could consider them for inclusion too?

I am pretty sure the Enhanced Damage Effects mod simply provides more fireworks/fireballs during explosions. I don't think it affects the damage of the target at all.

Steve

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I am pretty sure the Enhanced Damage Effects mod simply provides more fireworks/fireballs during explosions. I don't think it affects the damage of the target at all.

Steve

That's true for both. Eye candy.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

Thanks. I'll look into the mod.

Meanwhile, I think we have a difference in our accounting procedures.

...cut...

Accordingly I conclude, based on your data, that 50 percent of the ships you hit went down on the power of a torpedo. That's very good. The mod must be helping you a lot.

Well, you do not have to look at the numbers of eels fired but at the numbers of eels that actually hit the target, to determine if, in average, the power of a single torpedo usually sunk 1 ship so... Yes, we have different way of measure the facts

I just posted all my engagements where I wanted to take them down with torpedoes and not gunfire, just to give you the complete context, but if we want to count only the ships that are gone by the equation "1 eel struck = 1 ship down" here are the numbers:

1th patrol - 13 ships sunk - 8 targetted with eels - 5 one-hit-one-kill

1) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (7h, day)
2) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h, night)
3) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (5h, night)
4) Small Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (4h46m, night)
5) Ore Carrier, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h30m, night)

One-hit-one-kill rate = 62.5%

2nd patrol - 15 ships sunk - 10 targetted with eels - 6 one-hit-one-kill

2) Medium Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (3h30m)
4) Small Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (2h45m, day)
6) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)
7) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (7h, day)
8) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (day)
9) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)

One-hit-one-kill rate = 60%

Ok, I conclude that saying that "ships will routinely go down with 1 eel" is a bit of an overstatement, but definetly more than half go down with 1 eel

Note also I was not determined, in every single attack set up, to achieve the one hit one one kill ratio, I bet I can do better, if I really care so much


@ maillemaker
@ desirableroasted:
You are right sirs, the "GWX - Enhanced Damage Effects" option is just eye-candy, I forgot that.
It's the other mod, the "TheDarkWraith_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_4_SH3" that helps a lot.

[Zosimus]

Well admittedly I made some assumptions when I did the calculations. If you said you fired two eels and they both hit and the ship went down, then I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that you fired one, it hit, you waited awhile, and then fired another one. It's possible, of course, that you fired a two-shot salvo and both hit, sinking the ship. If so, then that doesn't really count because we can't know whether a single torpedo would have gotten the job done. So if I marked that one as a failure when it was really inconclusive, then I apologize.

On the other hand, if you routinely fire two at ships, I imagine that's because you think one isn't going to do the job.

[Pistoliero]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

Well admittedly I made some assumptions when I did the calculations. If you said you fired two eels and they both hit and the ship went down, then I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that you fired one, it hit, you waited awhile, and then fired another one. It's possible, of course, that you fired a two-shot salvo and both hit, sinking the ship. If so, then that doesn't really count because we can't know whether a single torpedo would have gotten the job done. So if I marked that one as a failure when it was really inconclusive, then I apologize.

On the other hand, if you routinely fire two at ships, I imagine that's because you think one isn't going to do the job.

Firing two has some benefits, apart from obvious one (more damage if both hit). It increases chance to hit, it handles duds and prematures (unlikely to happen for both torpedoes). It is historical afterall.

One seems not enough for large ships if you did not hit specific locations most of the time. Maybe I just lack patience to wait sinking for 6-8 hours, who knows.
On the other hand ammunition ships often explode from any hit to any location. And tankers explode only slightly rarer in case they carry something flammable. Merchants carrying ammo also explode and sink with one hit commonly. Hard part is that you never know what's in that boxes on the deck.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

On the other hand, if you routinely fire two at ships, I imagine that's because you think one isn't going to do the job.

Note that the instances when I fired 2 eels (and btw yes, they were all salvo) are more in my 1th patrol than the 2nd one (3 instances VS 1 only).

The reason is simple: I was both unsure about the correcteness of my torpedo solutions, also I was unsure about the outcome of a single hit in effectevly sinking the target. That was because I was more inexperienced then in my following patrol

Now my own personal rule of thumb are the following:
- target <= 2000 tons: gunfire only;
- target <= 10000 tons: 1 eel only;
- traget > 10000 tons: 2 eels.

If target won't go down in a reasonable time frame (the lenght of which I will estabilish on a case-by-case situation) help her with gunfire.

EDIT
Just for clarification: the time spans reported in my data are not about the amount of time the victim ship take to sunk, they are the overall in game time it takes me to intercept & sunk her from the time of the first contact I estabilished with her (Radio Contact if cast by BdU or an appearing contact on the in game map out-of-the-blue, a Visual Contact or a Sound Contact).

[Pistoliero]

By the way 88mm deck gun needs only 30 - 40 shots to sink even large merchant. And it is with crew doing all the job. If you know where to aim and how to do it (both false for me) you probable need much less ammo.

Deck gun is the best way to sink unarmed and unprotected target, don't afraid to shell large ships.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Pistoliero

By the way 88mm deck gun needs only 30 - 40 shots to sink even large merchant. And it is with crew doing all the job. If you know where to aim and how to do it (both false for me) you probable need much less ammo.

Well, in the game I feel more in the shoes of the kaleun that command the boat, I refuse to personally man the deck gun or the AA machinegun (even if, for the latter, sometimes I need to do it, for example when I try to shot out the Leight lights of a merchant).

Originally Posted by Pistoliero

Deck gun is the best way to sink unarmed and unprotected target, don't afraid to shell large ships.

Ageed, but for some reason I do not like to favour too much the deck gun, I feel more inclined in using the torpedoes above all. I tend to consider the deck gun more like a backup weapon and also I dislike the fact that in order to be able to use it I have to put my boat in a such so potentially dangerous situation (surfaced, slow going, near enemy target, with many men on the deck, incresead time to submerge because of the longer time needed to clear the deck*... a too vulnerable stance to feel right, YMMV).

* this aspect is not modeled by the game, but for me is there. For pure gameplay pleasure I consider my crew above all very real, and I hate to risk my men lives without valid motivation.

[maillemaker]

I fire two torpedoes when I cannot afford not to sink the ship.

For example, in foul weather when I can't use the deck gun, or once merchants are armed making using the deck gun dangerous, I will usually use 2 torpedoes from the outset.

I'm on the fence with ships in convoy.

On one hand, I get enough one-hit explosions on convoy ships (I guess they are carrying cargo) that I am tempted to try one-torpedo-per-ship. Also if they are damaged they often drop behind the convoy where they can be picked off.

But it annoys me to damage merchants and see them sail off with the convoy.

Usually, if I can't be certain I can surface and use the deck gun, I give the target 2 torpedoes.

You get no renown for damaged ships, so it's "on the bottom baby" for me.

Steve