Another US school shooting

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TarJak

Japan? Culture has more to do with it than numbers IMHO.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...d-States/Crime

Or more telling

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...ia/Japan/Crime
Note the assault ans firearm murder stats.

The problem i see with those links is the simple logic. If you cram more people in a given area, your going to see more of just about everything. In other words an area with 10,000 people, is going to see more crime then an area with 1000 people. More people, equates to more problems because as you increase people your probability increases as well.

Looking up the 2010 demographics really quickly:
Japan has a total population of 128,057,352
United States has a total population of 308,745,531
In other words as of 2010, there are 180,688,179 more people living in the US then in Japan. So of course the first link is going to say, whatever is X percent more then japan.

Comparatively, grabbing the latest statistics for Japan and Australia (no 2010 stats to match):

Australia's total population is estimated at 23,248,742. (I find this hard to believe)
Japans total population is estimated at 126,659,683.
Going by these statistics, Japan has 103,410,941 more people crammed within its borders then Australia. So of course some stats on japan will be higher.

I think statistics like these are only telling if you have a smaller population with a greater incidence of whatever it is being looked at.
edit 1: or vice versa

edit 2: As for firearm murder stats, I have to wonder, is being murdered when your assaliant used a gun somehow more horrible then being murdered by any other means? Stabbing, strangulation, baseball bat to the head? I'd say regardless of weapon used, murder is murder.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

The problem i see with those links is the simple logic. If you cram more people in a given area, your going to see more of just about everything. In other words an area with 10,000 people, is going to see more crime then an area with 1000 people. More people, equates to more problems because as you increase people your probability increases as well.

Potentially, however only if the culture supports that activity. Hence the comparison between Australia and Japan. Japan, many more people in a much smaller area; but less Assault victims per head than Japan. Kinda supports the point that culture has more to do with crime than numbers. Which was my point in answer to Platapus' theory that numbers would drive crime. IMO these numbers alone make a reasonable case for culture over population or even population density.

Looking up the 2010 demographics really quickly:
Japan has a total population of 128,057,352
United States has a total population of 308,745,531
In other words as of 2010, there are 180,688,179 more people living in the US then in Japan. So of course the first link is going to say, whatever is X percent more then japan.

But that wasn't really the point. See above.

Comparatively, grabbing the latest statistics for Japan and Australia (no 2010 stats to match):

Australia's total population is estimated at 23,248,742. (I find this hard to believe)

They counted them last year: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs%4...3?OpenDocument
Japans total population is estimated at 126,659,683.

Going by these statistics, Japan has 103,410,941 more people crammed within its borders then Australia. So of course some stats on japan will be higher.
[/quote]
Again this wasn't the point I was trying to make. Yes is sheer numbers you will see more violent crimes, but in Japan vs Australia you see a definitely lower rate of violence per capita to Australia. The difference is the culture.

I think statistics like these are only telling if you have a smaller population with a greater incidence of whatever it is being looked at.

Yes that was my point. Japan has a higher population than Australia but less violent crime per capita. Japan has much higher population density that either Australia or America but again less violent crime per capita. Hence their culture must have more to do with their behaviour than sheer numbers.

edit 2: As for firearm murder stats, I have to wonder, is being murdered when your assaliant used a gun somehow more horrible then being murdered by any other means? Stabbing, strangulation, baseball bat to the head? I'd say regardless of weapon used, murder is murder.

I agree. Murder is murder, but we were talking about a shooting at a school, so talking about gun murder is more relevant that talking about strangulation for example.

[Ducimus]

I think this thread should be dumped in with the gun control depository thread, since that is really what this thread is ultimately about. If a pro gun rights advocate starts a gun control thread, it gets dumped into the depository within a few hours. To keep things fair, i think if a pro gun control advocate also starts a thread, it too, should be dumped into the depository within a few hours.

[August]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think this thread should be dumped in with the gun control depository thread, since that is really what this thread is ultimately about. If a pro gun rights advocate starts a gun control thread, it gets dumped into the depository within a few hours. To keep things fair, i think if a pro gun control advocate also starts a thread, it too, should be dumped into the depository within a few hours.

+ 1

[TarJak]

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?

Originally Posted by TarJak

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?

I don't know.
You live in Convict Land so I would think you want Guns to over throw us that live in Free Land.


It's hard to get your point of view cause I can't stand on my head long enuff!

[August]

Originally Posted by privateer

I don't know.
You live in Convict Land so I would think you want Guns to over throw us that live in Free Land.


It's hard to get your point of view cause I can't stand on my head long enuff!

+ 1

Originally Posted by August

+ 1

Ya. He'll kick my arse for that!

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by privateer

I don't know.
You live in Convict Land so I would think you want Guns to over throw us that live in Free Land.


It's hard to get your point of view cause I can't stand on my head long enuff!

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?

I think the post was just a reaction to the posted statistics not working out for him. Hence the wish to see this buried in the gunny gunz thread.

Though I think it is pretty safe to say you are in favour of gun control, as only a complete imbecile would be in favour of no gun control.
When pushed all but the most extreme nuts turn out to be in favour of firearm regulation of one sort or another, so the reality is that almost everyone is in fact an advocate of gun control

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I think the post was just a reaction to the posted statistics not working out for him. Hence the wish to see this buried in the gunny gunz thread.

Though I think it is pretty safe to say you are in favour of gun control, as only a complete imbecile would be in favour of no gun control.
When pushed all but the most extreme nuts turn out to be in favour of firearm regulation of one sort or another, so the reality is that almost everyone is in fact an advocate of gun control

I figured that, however I'm not what I would call an advocate either way. Merely and interested bystander looking for answers to questions I doubt that I'll ever fully understand.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TarJak

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?

I have little reason to think otherwise at the moment, for three reasons:

1.) You tend to jump into related threads with what appears to be zeal. Gun control advocates are quick to take ANY incident that involved a gun, and use it to bolster their view somehow.

2.) You created this thread, about an incident which is sadly not uncommon when dealing with gangs and drugs. You entitled it, "Another US school shooting". Your choice of topic, and words used implies , "OMG, the gunz, when will it end?! BANZOR teh gunz!"

3.) After continuing discussion, your insistence on focusing on guns, which in this incident, was the method used, but not the root problem.

Originally Posted by TarJak

I agree. Murder is murder, but we were talking about a shooting at a school, so talking about gun murder is more relevant that talking about strangulation for example.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I have little reason to think otherwise at the moment, for three reasons:

1.) You tend to jump into related threads with what appears to be zeal. Gun control advocates are quick to take ANY incident that involved a gun, and use it to bolster their view somehow.

2.) You created this thread, about an incident which is sadly not uncommon when dealing with gangs and drugs. You entitled it, "Another US school shooting". Your choice of topic, and words used implies , "OMG, the gunz, when will it end?! BANZOR teh gunz!"

3.) After continuing discussion, your insistence on focusing on guns.

Wow, way to read too much into something

Originally Posted by TarJak

Now that I like!

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Wow, way to read too much into something

^+1

Can't say that I agree with your synopsis Ducimus.