The most expensive weapon system of all times - Page 4

Oberon · 02-24-13, 02:47 PM

That is a good point, if you don't factor it in as percentage of GDP then it is a hideously scary number, but as a factor of the GDP it isn't so bad. The tricky part is how to use that to fix the debt and how long it'll take to do that.
Now, this whole economic crisis is going to burn itself out in the next few years and there'll be lots of patting each other on the back for 'fixing' it but the problem will remain because it's not a financial problem it's a global sociological problem that is caused by our own nature. We all want what we don't have, we all want what someone else has, all that finances do is make it easier for us to do this and put away paying for it until a later date. This works for both the average Joe and the US Senate and Chinese Politburo, although obviously the way the Chinese government works makes it a bit easier to regulate what its people can gain access to, but even then the thriving knock-off market and corruption makes access to goods easier depending on who you know and what you can provide them with.
Skybirds comment from the chap from Brazil has some merit, however in a few generations time Brazil may, and probably will, find itself in a similar position to America, because its current generations will have enjoyed their quality of life that has come through financial bargaining and they will be unwilling to give it up, and I can't blame them, there are few here and now that would want to give up things like satellite television, internet access, easy to cook food, and good workplace regulations on safety and pay even if it is for their children or their childrens children. One or two people might, but the overwhelming might of society will not, and that is something that you'll be hard put to change.

MH · 02-24-13, 03:16 PM

The standard of living in USA is mostly economy driven compared to some other social democratic places where the link between the state and the way its citizen live is much stronger.

Quote:

Now, this whole economic crisis is going to burn itself out in the next few years and there'll be lots of patting each other on the back for 'fixing' it but the problem will remain because it's not a financial problem it's a global sociological problem that is caused by our own nature. We all want what we don't have, we all want what someone else has, all that finances do is make it easier for us to do this and put away paying for it until a later date.

Then we should blame ourselves.
Possibly that is the reason why American system works so well by living most responsibility and bill paying in the hands of the people.

Jimbuna · 02-24-13, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

That is a good point, if you don't factor it in as percentage of GDP then it is a hideously scary number, but as a factor of the GDP it isn't so bad. The tricky part is how to use that to fix the debt and how long it'll take to do that.
Now, this whole economic crisis is going to burn itself out in the next few years and there'll be lots of patting each other on the back for 'fixing' it but the problem will remain because it's not a financial problem it's a global sociological problem that is caused by our own nature. We all want what we don't have, we all want what someone else has, all that finances do is make it easier for us to do this and put away paying for it until a later date. This works for both the average Joe and the US Senate and Chinese Politburo, although obviously the way the Chinese government works makes it a bit easier to regulate what its people can gain access to, but even then the thriving knock-off market and corruption makes access to goods easier depending on who you know and what you can provide them with.
Skybirds comment from the chap from Brazil has some merit, however in a few generations time Brazil may, and probably will, find itself in a similar position to America, because its current generations will have enjoyed their quality of life that has come through financial bargaining and they will be unwilling to give it up, and I can't blame them, there are few here and now that would want to give up things like satellite television, internet access, easy to cook food, and good workplace regulations on safety and pay even if it is for their children or their childrens children. One or two people might, but the overwhelming might of society will not, and that is something that you'll be hard put to change.

So should I sell the house or the investment portfolio?

Bilge_Rat · 02-24-13, 04:39 PM

Ths issue is not the economy, most charts put the USA in the top ten in terms of GDP per capita, the wealth is there, its just the politicians who are not willing to raise taxes. If Americans were paying taxes on the same level as citizens in Canada or the UK, the US would have a large bdget surplus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Fear-mongering over drops in your defence budget? That is hilarious (LINK)

you really think Russia and China are releasing the real numbers?

Russia has said its 5th generation plane program will only cost $10 billion. Russia is replacing 50% of all the weapons used by the Russian Army by 2020. Russia, which supposedly only has a small military budget has still managed to export arms at the same level as the US for the past 10 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_arms_exports

Most financial analysts have serious doubts about the numbers the Chinese government is releasing about its economy, why should military spending be any different? China has not released the projected cost of the J-20 program.

Oberon · 02-24-13, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

So should I sell the house or the investment portfolio?

Sell everything and buy a cow.

EDIT: On second thoughts, sell everything except the plane collection. You can give that to me for safe keeping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

Then we should blame ourselves.
Possibly that is the reason why American system works so well by living most responsibility and bill paying in the hands of the people.

Unfortunately that is the case, the banks make a nice juicey target, but at the end of the day, without us taking opportunity of what they offer, they wouldn't be able to offer anything.

Jimbuna · 02-24-13, 04:48 PM

I wouldn't believe a word of Chinese propaganda but would take careful consideration of what Russia spouts out.

MH · 02-24-13, 04:55 PM

Quote:

If Americans were paying taxes on the same level as citizens in Canada or the UK, the US would have a large bdget surplus.

If they paid taxes like here in Israel they could buy beer for whole china because.... why not.

CaptainMattJ. · 02-24-13, 05:22 PM

Funny, I just wrote a research paper about whether or not our funding being funneled into "Defense" (which also includes a separate budget for offense

) is being used efficiently. This paper was talked about in january and the first thing that came to my mind was the F-35 program, and i'm using it as a prime example of the horrible inefficiencies of the DOD. I found quite a few links that stated the wide reaching effects of this disaster of a program, unfortunately i already have written and submitted my paper, so i didn't get to use this source.

The F-35 Program nearly doubled in cost, we are now receiving less aircraft than originally planned, the full-rate production date has been set back 7 years to 2019, cost per aircraft doubled, aircraft are experiencing huge setbacks, manufacturing defects, haven't gotten through all of it's testing, ect. How can the pentagon be left to waste money on this program?!

Glock30Eric · 02-24-13, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

Funny, I just wrote a research paper about whether or not our funding being funneled into "Defense" (which also includes a separate budget for offense

) is being used efficiently. This paper was talked about in january and the first thing that came to my mind was the F-35 program, and i'm using it as a prime example of the horrible inefficiencies of the DOD. I found quite a few links that stated the wide reaching effects of this disaster of a program, unfortunately i already have written and submitted my paper, so i didn't get to use this source.

The F-35 Program nearly doubled in cost, we are now receiving less aircraft than originally planned, the full-rate production date has been set back 7 years to 2019, cost per aircraft doubled, aircraft are experiencing huge setbacks, manufacturing defects, haven't gotten through all of it's testing, ect. How can the pentagon be left to waste money on this program?!

Exactly!

Skybird · 02-24-13, 07:02 PM

Guys, I have tried often enough to explain in past threads what the difference between "explicit debt" and implicit debt" is.

You better start to understand that the latter is far more important - and threatening - than the first. Ypou have to multiply the harmless debts they use to quote in the media by factors between 5 and 20, depending on the industry nation you chose.

In the past, when the competition on the global economy market was easier for the West, and taxes were flowing rich, and economy was fine - already then all states made debts. If even in the easiest and best and wealthiest of times states did not manage to control their debts, how could you assume that in an economic environment far more difficult and much more fought over, with higher debts and interests, a much bigger crisis, a much more meaningless currency of non-value, a multiple times as disadvantageous volume relation between real material values and FIAT money, in short: with every variable being far far more disadvantageous - how could you assume that in this harder situation budgets and debts and deficits and all that will improve...?

You already have not flown by will-power alone when you jump out of the window in the past. You instead broke your bones. And now some of you seem to think that the trick nevertheless will work if you jump off the peak of Mount Everest - because it is higher and the challenge presses your mind power more intense to fly?

Well, in times when you get a "suspect" marker stamped on your intel file when you have not a certain amount of red numbers on your banking accounts and do not have a credit card, and when many people "solve" their debt issues by shifting the debts of one credit card to the next and do this over four, five cards and more, and their banks even encourage them to do so, maybe I could not expect more indeed. Miracle belief will save us, no doubt. Or, as Oberon put it, digging until we reach China.

Ecplicit debts are just destracting. The compare to the tip of the iceberg you see above the water surface. Implict debts is what you must focus on instead - the many many times as huge bulk of the iceberg hidden below the surface: its mere volume, and the time dimension that it implies, because implicit debts realise over time, inevitably. The current states of things say little. The momentum says all.

Glock30Eric · 02-24-13, 08:50 PM

^^^ Yup it is like the Titanic hit the iceberg but it wasn't sure if it had hit it, so they had to make a second run into iceberg to make sure that the ship got hit by an iceberg. LOL. it is true.

MH · 02-25-13, 02:31 AM

The whole dark prognosis about implict debt is just prognosis. Not neccessary meaning that it all will happen.Bush administration had put usa in this mess with tax reduction and increased spendings but things can change now.

Glock30Eric · 02-25-13, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

The whole dark prognosis about implict debt is just prognosis. Not neccessary meaning that it all will happen.Bush administration had put usa in this mess with tax reduction and increased spendings but things can change now.

The problems went all way back to 1913 when USA legislative branch established Federal Reserve Bank, then the problem grew worse when President Nixon in 1971 removed the gold standard in USA's currency, and then President Clinton enabled the reckless bank practice in 1994-2002, where the housing bubble grew in accordance with our GDP expanding like a crazy lighting bolt.

Yeah blame President Bush for everything.... Is President Bush the scapegoat for every problems that we have?

EDIT: President Bush stole the idea from President Reagan with the cutting taxes and increase defense spendings. President Reagan is far worse than President Bush if you take the inflation adjustment in the picture.

Skybird · 02-25-13, 07:39 AM

Ffffffft - Bumms.

Ffffffft - Bumms.

Two more willpower-flyers whose will got defeated by gravity.

MH · 02-25-13, 07:46 AM

Forgot about regan.
BW
Nothing personal against bush....you know just saying.

02-24-13, 04:48 PM	#51
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,500 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I wouldn't believe a word of Chinese propaganda but would take careful consideration of what Russia spouts out. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

02-24-13, 05:22 PM	#53
CaptainMattJ. The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sin City Posts: 1,364 Downloads: 55 Uploads: 0	Funny, I just wrote a research paper about whether or not our funding being funneled into "Defense" (which also includes a separate budget for offense ) is being used efficiently. This paper was talked about in january and the first thing that came to my mind was the F-35 program, and i'm using it as a prime example of the horrible inefficiencies of the DOD. I found quite a few links that stated the wide reaching effects of this disaster of a program, unfortunately i already have written and submitted my paper, so i didn't get to use this source. The F-35 Program nearly doubled in cost, we are now receiving less aircraft than originally planned, the full-rate production date has been set back 7 years to 2019, cost per aircraft doubled, aircraft are experiencing huge setbacks, manufacturing defects, haven't gotten through all of it's testing, ect. How can the pentagon be left to waste money on this program?! __________________ A popular Government without popular information nor the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy or perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own Governors must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives - James Madison

02-24-13, 07:02 PM	#55
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,612 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Guys, I have tried often enough to explain in past threads what the difference between "explicit debt" and implicit debt" is. You better start to understand that the latter is far more important - and threatening - than the first. Ypou have to multiply the harmless debts they use to quote in the media by factors between 5 and 20, depending on the industry nation you chose. In the past, when the competition on the global economy market was easier for the West, and taxes were flowing rich, and economy was fine - already then all states made debts. If even in the easiest and best and wealthiest of times states did not manage to control their debts, how could you assume that in an economic environment far more difficult and much more fought over, with higher debts and interests, a much bigger crisis, a much more meaningless currency of non-value, a multiple times as disadvantageous volume relation between real material values and FIAT money, in short: with every variable being far far more disadvantageous - how could you assume that in this harder situation budgets and debts and deficits and all that will improve...? You already have not flown by will-power alone when you jump out of the window in the past. You instead broke your bones. And now some of you seem to think that the trick nevertheless will work if you jump off the peak of Mount Everest - because it is higher and the challenge presses your mind power more intense to fly? Well, in times when you get a "suspect" marker stamped on your intel file when you have not a certain amount of red numbers on your banking accounts and do not have a credit card, and when many people "solve" their debt issues by shifting the debts of one credit card to the next and do this over four, five cards and more, and their banks even encourage them to do so, maybe I could not expect more indeed. Miracle belief will save us, no doubt. Or, as Oberon put it, digging until we reach China. Ecplicit debts are just destracting. The compare to the tip of the iceberg you see above the water surface. Implict debts is what you must focus on instead - the many many times as huge bulk of the iceberg hidden below the surface: its mere volume, and the time dimension that it implies, because implicit debts realise over time, inevitably. The current states of things say little. The momentum says all. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-24-13, 08:50 PM	#56
Glock30Eric Ru$ Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Southern Maryland Posts: 75 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	^^^ Yup it is like the Titanic hit the iceberg but it wasn't sure if it had hit it, so they had to make a second run into iceberg to make sure that the ship got hit by an iceberg. LOL. it is true. __________________ Keep calm and carry on.

02-25-13, 07:39 AM	#59
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,612 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Ffffffft - Bumms. Ffffffft - Bumms. Two more willpower-flyers whose will got defeated by gravity. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-24-13, 02:47 PM	#46
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	That is a good point, if you don't factor it in as percentage of GDP then it is a hideously scary number, but as a factor of the GDP it isn't so bad. The tricky part is how to use that to fix the debt and how long it'll take to do that. Now, this whole economic crisis is going to burn itself out in the next few years and there'll be lots of patting each other on the back for 'fixing' it but the problem will remain because it's not a financial problem it's a global sociological problem that is caused by our own nature. We all want what we don't have, we all want what someone else has, all that finances do is make it easier for us to do this and put away paying for it until a later date. This works for both the average Joe and the US Senate and Chinese Politburo, although obviously the way the Chinese government works makes it a bit easier to regulate what its people can gain access to, but even then the thriving knock-off market and corruption makes access to goods easier depending on who you know and what you can provide them with. Skybirds comment from the chap from Brazil has some merit, however in a few generations time Brazil may, and probably will, find itself in a similar position to America, because its current generations will have enjoyed their quality of life that has come through financial bargaining and they will be unwilling to give it up, and I can't blame them, there are few here and now that would want to give up things like satellite television, internet access, easy to cook food, and good workplace regulations on safety and pay even if it is for their children or their childrens children. One or two people might, but the overwhelming might of society will not, and that is something that you'll be hard put to change.

02-25-13, 02:31 AM	#57
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	The whole dark prognosis about implict debt is just prognosis. Not neccessary meaning that it all will happen.Bush administration had put usa in this mess with tax reduction and increased spendings but things can change now.

02-25-13, 07:46 AM	#60
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	Forgot about regan. BW Nothing personal against bush....you know just saying.