White House debt talks collapse - Page 4

Armistead · 07-26-11, 10:48 AM

Neal, I think you're leaving out what made this country the greatest nation on earth, we built a strong middle class. How was this done, strong regulation that gave workers a fair shake, min wages, benefits, safety protections, breaking monoploies, fair tax codes, trade laws,..on and on.
We had the highest tax rates when we built the middle class and social services were low.

The problem with less regulation and taxes is we think the elite will do the right thing, it doesn't and hasn't worked that way in decades and won't in a global market. We did lessen regulations, tax cuts under Bush, trade laws, NAFTA, etc..told this would create mass jobs, it did the reverse. Study what happened the last corporate holiday, jobs were lost, profits were invested in stock here...no jobs created.

What it did was build and elite class where about 10% now hold 80% of all real wealth. Millions forced into poverty, no health insurance, etc. Both parties saw all the wealth going one direction, so the answer was more social services to keep americans calm why the rich got richer. Now the GOP wants to keep the rich richer and I assume use the herd mentality and let the poor die off. However, the number in poverty has now exceeded what can be paid. The answer, do what we did to create a strong middle class before, but sadly corporate america owns both parties now.

Many really do seem to believe the more breaks you give corporations, the more they will give back.

Our government failed us as the economy went global, instead of setting law to make a global economy work for us, they sold out to special interest and it now only works for a few. Neither party is addressing this, the GOP wants it to continue, so do the Dems, they just want the elite to pay for the social programs since they get so much favor to gain wealth.

Every leading economist, all extreme wealthy men like Gates, Buffet, Trump says our future will be a two class society. Many today still live a middle class life, but they do so in debt, they trust employers for med insurance, etc... Facts show another crisis could throw another 50 million americans into poverty. Studies say another 50 million will lose med insurance in the next decade, but the rich will get even richer. We even here some GOP members like Bachman that want to get rid of min. wage..

Instead of bringing back jobs here the correct way, by undoing all the mess that created the problem, the GOP is saying Americans must get down to the working levels in third world nations.
That we must accept $2 per hour, no benefits, no safety regulation, etc.. If congress isn't willing to bring back laws that keeps jobs here, then no matter what breaks you give corporations they will do business where they can the cheapest. It's very dangerous to use US wealth and assets creating stronger economies in nations that may one day want to run us over.

Armistead · 07-26-11, 11:00 AM

I also think it's a joke to say 50-60% of americans pay no taxes. They may not pay it through payroll, but the government gets it other ways. Before I became disabled, the last year I worked I was down to 70K a year. I kept records of all taxes I paid, FICA, property, gas tax, phone tax, sales tax, electric tax, etc... 42% of my income went to taxes... My guess is those numbers would hold down to 30K a year.

Just check, for every product or service you buy there will be a line somewhere with a tax included.

mookiemookie · 07-26-11, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I also think it's a joke to say 50-60% of americans pay no taxes. They may not pay it through payroll, but the government gets it other ways. Before I became disabled, the last year I worked I was down to 70K a year. I kept records of all taxes I paid, FICA, property, gas tax, phone tax, sales tax, electric tax, etc... 42% of my income went to taxes... My guess is those numbers would hold down to 30K a year.

Just check, for every product or service you buy there will be a line somewhere with a tax included.

You're absolutely right. Anyone that parrots that "60% don't pay taxes" line is either ignorant or willfully trying to deceive you. Everyone who earns any income or purchases anything at all pays taxes. And the corporations pass their taxes on to you, the consumer:

Quote:

On Friday, Congress failed to approve the extension of a bill to keep the Federal Aviation Administration running. Among other things, that meant the agency no longer had the authority to impose the various federal taxes that airlines add to the price of each ticket.

So as of 12:01 a.m. Saturday, the federal government began losing an estimated $25 million a day in tax revenue.

But did airlines simply pass on this savings to customers?

No, they did not.

Last week, evidently in anticipation of the tax’s expiring, some airlines quietly began raising fares — on average, roughly by the same amount as the federal taxes. Others did the same over the weekend, and most of the rest joined in on Monday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/bu...es-expire.html

Onkel Neal · 07-26-11, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I also think it's a joke to say 50-60% of americans pay no taxes.

Ah, I didn't say that.

AVGWarhawk · 07-26-11, 11:53 AM

Quote:

It's very dangerous to use US wealth and assets creating stronger economies in nations that may one day want to run us over.

Never a truer statement!

gimpy117 · 07-26-11, 05:42 PM

nail was struck on the heard Amistead. We can't expect to bring this country back from the brink with only a few holding so much wealth.

Tchocky · 07-26-11, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The big standoff now is Republicans, under pressure from Tea Party activists, want to force the President to make large spending cuts without raising taxes on the wealthy

Just a minor point Neal - it's nothing to do with just the wealthy. Almost all of the Republican House have signed a pledge to never ever raise taxes in any circumstance. Closing loopholes etc is included in this. I'm strongly in agreement with Tom Friedman in saying this is an "abdication of their governing responsibilities in a period of incredibly rapid change and financial stress".

Platapus · 07-26-11, 06:23 PM

What is interesting is that in all the discussions in the media, there is little mention on the Federal Revenue.

Time is the only magazine I have been able to find that published the numbers indicating that, as a ratio of our GDP, Federal Revenue is the lowest it has been since the early 1950s.

This is why reports on the tax rate is misleading. Tax rates are only a place where tax laws and tax lawyers start from. With all the deductions and loopholes the effective tax rate is lower.

It was a most interesting and informative article in Time.

Before we start talking about raising taxes, perhaps we need to start closing the deductions/loopholes to raise the Federal Revenue at the same time we cut Federal Spending.

07-26-11, 06:31 PM

Quote:

It's very dangerous to use US wealth and assets
creating stronger economies in nations that may one day want to run us over.

Too Late.
We assisted Japan and other Countries to do just that!
Then We passed Laws that allowed Jobs to pour out of the U.S.A.
all the while giveing huge breaks to the Companies that did just that.

Now it's getting close to 'Pay the Piper Time'.

gimpy117 · 07-26-11, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Before we start talking about raising taxes, perhaps we need to start closing the deductions/loopholes to raise the Federal Revenue at the same time we cut Federal Spending.

they still think fo that as an increase. and any increases will have team R holing.

Platapus · 07-26-11, 07:39 PM

Perhaps, this fiasco may convince people to vote for the person and not just the initial behind a candidate's name.

It really is time to get some adults in congress who are truly interested in running the country and not just party politics

Like that will ever happen in America. I kill myself sometimes.

07-26-11, 07:45 PM

Yea, I'll spend 100 Million for a Position that only pays what?
A Million a year for 4 years?
Think about that!

nikimcbee · 07-26-11, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by privateer

Yea, I'll spend 100 Million for a Position that only pays what?
A Million a year for 4 years?
Think about that!

They like to freebase the power.

They should pay all of those guys minimum wage and no benefits.

Schöneboom · 07-26-11, 08:17 PM

Hoo-Yeah, let's go even deeper in debt and print even more money! At the rate we're going, we'll all be rolling in dough, like this!

07-26-11, 08:24 PM

It just pisses me off the Gov can print money.
But if I do it it's a Crime!!

My printers are pretty good!

07-26-11, 05:42 PM	#51
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	nail was struck on the heard Amistead. We can't expect to bring this country back from the brink with only a few holding so much wealth. __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

07-26-11, 06:23 PM	#53
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,375 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	What is interesting is that in all the discussions in the media, there is little mention on the Federal Revenue. Time is the only magazine I have been able to find that published the numbers indicating that, as a ratio of our GDP, Federal Revenue is the lowest it has been since the early 1950s. This is why reports on the tax rate is misleading. Tax rates are only a place where tax laws and tax lawyers start from. With all the deductions and loopholes the effective tax rate is lower. It was a most interesting and informative article in Time. Before we start talking about raising taxes, perhaps we need to start closing the deductions/loopholes to raise the Federal Revenue at the same time we cut Federal Spending. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

07-26-11, 07:39 PM	#56
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,375 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Perhaps, this fiasco may convince people to vote for the person and not just the initial behind a candidate's name. It really is time to get some adults in congress who are truly interested in running the country and not just party politics Like that will ever happen in America. I kill myself sometimes. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

07-26-11, 08:17 PM	#59
Schöneboom Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 651 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Hoo-Yeah, let's go even deeper in debt and print even more money! At the rate we're going, we'll all be rolling in dough, like this! __________________ Dietrich Schöneboom, U-431 "Es wird klappen, Herr Kaleun. Ganz sicher."

07-26-11, 10:48 AM	#46
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Neal, I think you're leaving out what made this country the greatest nation on earth, we built a strong middle class. How was this done, strong regulation that gave workers a fair shake, min wages, benefits, safety protections, breaking monoploies, fair tax codes, trade laws,..on and on. We had the highest tax rates when we built the middle class and social services were low. The problem with less regulation and taxes is we think the elite will do the right thing, it doesn't and hasn't worked that way in decades and won't in a global market. We did lessen regulations, tax cuts under Bush, trade laws, NAFTA, etc..told this would create mass jobs, it did the reverse. Study what happened the last corporate holiday, jobs were lost, profits were invested in stock here...no jobs created. What it did was build and elite class where about 10% now hold 80% of all real wealth. Millions forced into poverty, no health insurance, etc. Both parties saw all the wealth going one direction, so the answer was more social services to keep americans calm why the rich got richer. Now the GOP wants to keep the rich richer and I assume use the herd mentality and let the poor die off. However, the number in poverty has now exceeded what can be paid. The answer, do what we did to create a strong middle class before, but sadly corporate america owns both parties now. Many really do seem to believe the more breaks you give corporations, the more they will give back. Our government failed us as the economy went global, instead of setting law to make a global economy work for us, they sold out to special interest and it now only works for a few. Neither party is addressing this, the GOP wants it to continue, so do the Dems, they just want the elite to pay for the social programs since they get so much favor to gain wealth. Every leading economist, all extreme wealthy men like Gates, Buffet, Trump says our future will be a two class society. Many today still live a middle class life, but they do so in debt, they trust employers for med insurance, etc... Facts show another crisis could throw another 50 million americans into poverty. Studies say another 50 million will lose med insurance in the next decade, but the rich will get even richer. We even here some GOP members like Bachman that want to get rid of min. wage.. Instead of bringing back jobs here the correct way, by undoing all the mess that created the problem, the GOP is saying Americans must get down to the working levels in third world nations. That we must accept $2 per hour, no benefits, no safety regulation, etc.. If congress isn't willing to bring back laws that keeps jobs here, then no matter what breaks you give corporations they will do business where they can the cheapest. It's very dangerous to use US wealth and assets creating stronger economies in nations that may one day want to run us over.

07-26-11, 11:00 AM	#47
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I also think it's a joke to say 50-60% of americans pay no taxes. They may not pay it through payroll, but the government gets it other ways. Before I became disabled, the last year I worked I was down to 70K a year. I kept records of all taxes I paid, FICA, property, gas tax, phone tax, sales tax, electric tax, etc... 42% of my income went to taxes... My guess is those numbers would hold down to 30K a year. Just check, for every product or service you buy there will be a line somewhere with a tax included.

07-26-11, 07:45 PM	#57
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Yea, I'll spend 100 Million for a Position that only pays what? A Million a year for 4 years? Think about that!

07-26-11, 08:24 PM	#60
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	It just pisses me off the Gov can print money. But if I do it it's a Crime!! My printers are pretty good!